DrCheese Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 I'd tell them to go swivel regarding the pricing ones, as far as I know that's not covered under FOI requests (As you say surely it's between the supplier and the customer) - It just smacks of a company trying to do market research.
TechMonkey Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 I'd tell them to go swivel regarding the pricing ones, as far as I know that's not covered under FOI requests (As you say surely it's between the supplier and the customer) - It just smacks of a company trying to do market research. Looks like some schools have ignored that question and had a request for a review. As much as I think FOIs are a good idea and transparency is a good thing, these types of request are what make think schools should be allowed to tell them to cram it.
enjay Posted November 14, 2017 Posted November 14, 2017 As much as I think FOIs are a good idea and transparency is a good thing, these types of request are what make think schools should be allowed to tell them to cram it. Agreed. There should be a way of ensuring publicly-funded bodies are acting responsibly, but nearly all the FOI requests I've seen have been market research. I wouldn't mind telling the National Audit Office how much I spend on filtering, but I object to telling a filtering provider how much I spend on filtering.
TechMonkey Posted November 14, 2017 Posted November 14, 2017 Agreed. There should be a way of ensuring publicly-funded bodies are acting responsibly, but nearly all the FOI requests I've seen have been market research. I wouldn't mind telling the National Audit Office how much I spend on filtering, but I object to telling a filtering provider how much I spend on filtering. Especially as most of them are awfully worded, don't show the whole picture or make random mental leaps, obviously because they are a marketing survey and have an agenda, so either you get reported for not responding properly to FOI requests or you just become complicit in some sham research.
mavhc Posted November 14, 2017 Posted November 14, 2017 Start your own research company, or just get all the schools to group together and pay for some open source software, then it'll be almost free
enjay Posted November 14, 2017 Posted November 14, 2017 Especially as most of them are awfully worded, don't show the whole picture or make random mental leaps, obviously because they are a marketing survey and have an agenda, so either you get reported for not responding properly to FOI requests or you just become complicit in some sham research. That's another problem, isn't it. Often you spot a flaw in the question and can see how the responses are going to get misinterpreted - like this one, in fact, which (as I think I said earlier) doesn't make a distinction between students whose parents live elsewhere and we don't have record of, and students whose parents are dead.
Banjo Posted November 17, 2017 Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) Had this FOI request today: 9. How many students does the school have? 10. How many staff does the school have? This Information is in the public domain https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-education/about/statistics This biggest FOI we have had so far is this one. I've had to cut some of it out as you can only post 15000 characters. There was 33 questions! 1. Section 5, page 6 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the percentage of Personal Education Plans (PEPs) that have been assessed as high quality and effective within each academic session? Yes or No If the answer is no please specify when you will have a system in place to supply the data. 2. Section 22, page 11 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the percentage of looked after children/care leavers (aged up to 18), that were educated in an educational institution judged as outstanding or good by Ofsted in each academic year? Yes or No? If the answer is no please specify when you will have a system in place to supply the data 3. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the amount of the authority’s care leavers (aged 19-25) that have returned to education or training in each academic year henceforth and were supported by the authority? Yes or No If the answer is no please specify when you will have a system in place to supply the data The electorate would like to know how your authority is performing against the statutory duties stated in the document Promoting the health and well-being of looked after children, statutory guidance for local authorities, clinical commissioning groups and NHS England, March 2015. On page 6 of the document it states: ”The local authority that looks after the child must arrange for them to have a health assessment as required by The Care Planning, Placement and Case Review (England) Regulations 2010” & “The initial health assessment must be done by a registered medical practitioner”. These statements clearly refer to the responsibility being positioned with the local authority; therefore the electorate would appreciate receiving this information from the local authority and not from any organisations that are commissioned to perform this work. 4. Section 40 page 15 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the number of looked after children and care leavers that entered the care of your authority within each financial year and henceforth? Yes or No. If the answer is no please specify when you will have a system in place to supply the data. 5. Section 40 page 15 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the number of looked after children and care leavers that entered the care of your authority in a financial year and henceforth, that had a statutory initial health assessment on entry to the care system? Yes or No? If the answer is no please specify when you will have a system in place to supply the data 6. Section 42, page 15 of the above document. The electorate would like to know that the emotional health of children coming into care is assessed by a person qualified to assess mental health. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the number of looked after children and care leavers that entered the care of your authority within each financial year and henceforth, that had their emotional health assessed by a registered medical practitioner (a person qualified to assess mental health) as part of their initial statutory health assessment? Yes or No? If the answer is no please specify when you will have a system in place to supply the data. On page 4 of the document it states “Local Authorities must comply with this guidance unless there are exceptional reasons that justify a departure” 7. Section 42, page 15 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the number of looked after children and care leavers that entered the care of your authority within each financial year and henceforth, that were diagnosed as needing support with their emotional well-being as part of their initial health assessment? Yes or No? If the answer is no please specify when you will have a system in place to supply the data. On page 4 of the document it states “Local Authorities must comply with this guidance unless there are exceptional reasons that justify a departure” 8. Section 42, page 15 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the number of looked after children and care leavers that received a therapeutic intervention from a registered medical practitioner to improve their emotional health and well-being as part of their initial health assessment? Yes or No? If the answer is no please specify when you will have a system in place to supply the data. On page 4 of the document it states “Local Authorities must comply with this guidance unless there are exceptional reasons that justify a departure” 9. Section 42, page 15 of the above document. The electorate would like to know that suitably qualified people are assessing the emotional health of looked after children and care leavers coming into care. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the names and qualifications of the medical practitioners that have assessed the emotional well-being of looked after children and care leavers that entered care of your authority, in each financial year and henceforth as part of their Initial Health Assessment? Yes or No? If the answer is no please specify when you will have a system in place to supply the data. On page 4 of the document it states “Local Authorities must comply with this guidance unless there are exceptional reasons that justify a departure”. 10. Section 42, page 15 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the number of looked after children and care leavers that entered the care of your authority within a financial year and had their mental health assessed by a registered medical practitioner (a person qualified to assess mental health) as part of their initial statutory health assessment? Yes or No? If the answer is no please specify when you will have a system in place to supply the data. On page 4 of the document it states “Local Authorities must comply with this guidance unless there are exceptional reasons that justify a departure” 11. Section 42, page 15 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the number of looked after children and care leavers that entered the care of your authority within a financial year and henceforth, that were assessed as needing support with their mental health, as part of their initial health assessment? Yes or No? If the answer is no please specify when you will have a system in place to supply the data. On page 4 of the document it states “Local Authorities must comply with this guidance unless there are exceptional reasons that justify a departure” 12. Section 42, page 15 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the number of looked after children and care leavers that entered the care of your authority within a financial year that were diagnosed as needing support with their mental health and received a therapeutic intervention from a registered medical practitioner, as part of their initial health assessment? Yes or No? If the answer is no please specify when you will have a system in place to supply the data. On page 4 of the document it states “Local Authorities must comply with this guidance unless there are exceptional reasons that justify a departure” 13. The electorate would like to know that suitably qualified people are assessing the mental health of looked after children and care leavers coming into care. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the names and qualifications of the medical practitioners that have assessed the mental health of looked after children and care leavers that entered the care of your authority within a financial year and henceforth, as part of their Initial Health Assessment? Yes or No? If the answer is no please specify when you will have a system in place to supply the data. On page 4 of the document it states “Local Authorities must comply with this guidance unless there are exceptional reasons that justify a departure” 14. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the percentage of the total population (not just the initial health assessment) of the authority’s looked after children and care leavers that received a mental health intervention from a qualified medical practitioner (Child and Adolescent Mental Health service or equivalent) within a financial year and henceforth? Yes or No. If the answer is no, please state when you will have a system in place to supply the data. 15. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the total amount of public funding spent on mental health provision (CAMHs or equivalent) within a financial year and henceforth, for the total population of the authority’s looked after children and care leavers? (up to the age of 18 under the care of the authority) Yes or No. If the answer is no, please state when you will have a system in place to supply the data. 16. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the total amount of public funding spent on mental health provision (CAMHs or equivalent) for all young people (not just LAC an Care Leavers) within a financial year and henceforth, Yes or No. If the answer is no, please state when you will have a system in place to supply the data. 17. The electorate would like to know the impact of mental health interventions delivered/commissioned by the authority for looked after children and care leavers. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the aggregated data from Revised Childhood anxiety and depression scale tests that have been conducted on looked after children and care leavers? These tests should be conducted with every young person that engages a mental health intervention (CAMHs or equivalent). Yes or No. If the answer is no, please state when you will have a system in place to supply the data. The electorate would like to know how your authority is performing against the statutory duties stated in the document -The children Act 1989, guidance and regulations, Volume 3: planning transition to adulthood for care leavers. October 2014. Can you please confirm that your local authority will be in a position to supply the following data/information: 18. Section 4.4, page 34 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the amount of former relevant young people that are being supported by your authority to return to education, training or employment within each financial year and henceforth? Yes or No? If the answer is no, please state when you will have a system in place to supply the data 19. Section 4.4, page 34 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the number of former relevant young people that have received a PA to support their education or training within a financial year and henceforth, aligned to section 23C (3) (a) of the 1989 Act? Yes or No? If the answer is no, please state when you will have a system in place to supply the data 20. Section 4.5, page 34 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the amount of public funding the authority spent in a financial year on expenses associated with employment for former relevant young people, section 23C (4) (a)? Yes or No? If the answer is no, please state when you will have a system in place to supply the data 21. Section 4.5, page 34 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the amount of public funding the authority spent in a financial year on expenses associated with education and training for former relevant young people, section 23C (4) (a)? Yes or No? If the answer is no, please state when you will have a system in place to supply the data 22. Section 7.12, page 62 of the above document .By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the number of your care leavers that the authority has placed in bed and breakfast accommodation in each financial year and henceforth, aligned to section 23B of the 1989 Act, and regulation 9 (2) of the care leaver regulations? Yes or No? If the answer is no, please state when you will have a system in place to supply the data 23. Section 7.27, page 65 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the number of care leavers that the authority has placed in a staying put arrangement in each financial year and henceforth? Yes or No? If the answer is no, please state when you will have a system in place to supply the data. 24. Section 7.30, page 66 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the total amount of public funding that the authority payed for staying put arrangements in each financial year and henceforth, aligned to section 23CZA (4) of the Children Act 1989? Yes or No? If the answer is no, please state when you will have a system in place to supply the data. 25. Section 8.19, page 80 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the numbers of care leavers that were awarded the setting up home allowance (public funding) in each financial year and henceforth? Yes or No? If the answer is no, please state when you will have a system in place to supply the data. 26. Section 8.19, page 80 of the above document. By January 2017 will your authority have a system in place to supply the electorate with the numbers of care leavers that left the care of your authority in each financial year and henceforth? Yes or No? If the answer is no, please state when you will have a system in place to supply the data. Edited November 17, 2017 by Banjo 1
enjay Posted November 17, 2017 Posted November 17, 2017 This biggest FOI we have had so far is this one. I've had to cut some of it out as you can only post 15000 characters! That's epic! I trust you refused on the grounds of it being vexatious! Who was it from?
Banjo Posted November 17, 2017 Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) That's epic! I trust you refused on the grounds of it being vexatious! Who was it from? Refused - it went to every LA in the country and nobody provided the answers as the request would take too long. So he chopped the questions up and resent them out as individual requests to LA's and we still said no as he was now deemed to be vexatious :-) > A Parent from Kent who'd fallen out with the LA. Edited November 17, 2017 by Banjo
DrCheese Posted November 17, 2017 Posted November 17, 2017 What the actual chuff. So he/she'd sent a massive document & then on top of that a list of questions based around that? How much time did this person have to burn?!
minimoo Posted November 17, 2017 Posted November 17, 2017 What the actual chuff. So he/she'd sent a massive document & then on top of that a list of questions based around that? How much time did this person have to burn?! If you are interested in something (or angry about something) you can generate lots of work quite with little effort. I mean - it would take me about 10 minutes to construct a list of questions querying how many energy saving light bulbs schools have vs traditional bulbs. I could probably find some data source that would give me an email address to a few thousand schools in the country within about 30 minutes no doubt. So 1 hour effort and you could effectively ask lots of people to walk around counting light bulbs - and even saying go away would probably take 10 minutes of someone's time. Correct me if i'm wrong - if a response wasn't received to the request you could then forward it to the ICO (i'm thinking it's someone else in this case?) complaining. I've wasted more time this week on hold to suppliers than it would take doing the above @Banjo - what LA do you work for - we can test this theory out? )
GrumbleDook Posted November 20, 2017 Posted November 20, 2017 To be honest, FOI requests are better placed coming via sites like https://www.whatdotheyknow.com as data is then published and available for future queries. I always search on there first. It was interesting to see that the creator of the original tool that this is based on spoke at the International Conference of Information Commissioners the other months, and was warmly received. 1
enjay Posted November 20, 2017 Posted November 20, 2017 To be honest, FOI requests are better placed coming via sites like https://www.whatdotheyknow.com as data is then published and available for future queries. Not just available for future queries, also for amusement - I've just been reading an exchange on there between someone and their local police force about whether or not the police are using mind-reading / mind-controlling technologies! 2
Banjo Posted November 23, 2017 Posted November 23, 2017 If you are interested in something (or angry about something) you can generate lots of work quite with little effort. I mean - it would take me about 10 minutes to construct a list of questions querying how many energy saving light bulbs schools have vs traditional bulbs. I could probably find some data source that would give me an email address to a few thousand schools in the country within about 30 minutes no doubt. So 1 hour effort and you could effectively ask lots of people to walk around counting light bulbs - and even saying go away would probably take 10 minutes of someone's time. Correct me if i'm wrong - if a response wasn't received to the request you could then forward it to the ICO (i'm thinking it's someone else in this case?) complaining. I've wasted more time this week on hold to suppliers than it would take doing the above @Banjo - what LA do you work for - we can test this theory out? ) Remember you don't have to count them you just have to check for any documents that may have been created where someone has recorded the numbers of lightbulbs (types) in school. But I do get your point, especially when the requestor requires information from previous years 14/15, 15/16, 16/17, etc
Dripping Posted December 6, 2017 Posted December 6, 2017 9th November 2017, 04:30 PM #44 sparkeh sparkeh is offline sparkeh originally posted this update Just an update - I emailed the noreply@ address and got an auto response telling me to use the website contained in the email. Therefore I can safely class this as not being a valid request. Hi, I had this same request and was advised the same as Sparkeh by the ICO, today I have had an email from the more ply email I sent the response to stating that we have refused the FOI and they want an internal review. We haven't actually refused the FOI we have asked for a valid address to correspond with, this hasn't been provided by the requester. Has anyone else had this, I would interested to hear from Sparkeh. Many thanks
sparkeh Posted December 6, 2017 Posted December 6, 2017 (edited) 9th November 2017, 04:30 PM #44 sparkeh sparkeh is offline sparkeh originally posted this update Just an update - I emailed the noreply@ address and got an auto response telling me to use the website contained in the email. Therefore I can safely class this as not being a valid request. Hi, I had this same request and was advised the same as Sparkeh by the ICO, today I have had an email from the more ply email I sent the response to stating that we have refused the FOI and they want an internal review. We haven't actually refused the FOI we have asked for a valid address to correspond with, this hasn't been provided by the requester. Has anyone else had this, I would interested to hear from Sparkeh. Many thanks No not heard any more on this. In my reply I stated that the ICO had given me advice. Personally I would state the advice again, clarify that the request was invalid and will comply with any valid request that is submitted. Edited December 6, 2017 by sparkeh
DODICT Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 @Dripping sorry to resurrect this but can I just clarify as I have just had the same request - ICO suggested it was appropriate to reply to the email request (noreply@. . . ) asking for an appropriate address to respond to ? Subsequently you haven't had a response to that request so have done nothing further ? Thanks.
Dripping Posted February 27, 2018 Posted February 27, 2018 Hi I did state the same as Sparkeh in her post above as I received the same advice from ICO, I haven't heard anything else since. Ultimately we weren't refusing to give the information we were just pointing out that we needed a valid correspondence address. This hasn't been provided so we haven't done anything else and had no further correspondence from this guy. Hope this helps. 1
bmaloney Posted March 3, 2018 Posted March 3, 2018 (edited) I have just come across this thread and it makes very interesting reading. The freedom of information requests are mine. I am a tax payer and schools are funded by people like me. I don't know if you good people have ever come across this document: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130321053648/https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/eOrderingDownload/DCSF-Parental_Involvement.pdf Basically it says children do better at school if their parents are involved. I don't know if you think children doing better at school is a good thing or not, maybe you're not interested in their education, but the first step to involving your parents is knowing who they are. School have a statutory duty to record the details of all the parents they know about, the vast majority will be on the birth certificate. I'd like to know if they are complying with the law. The FOIA gives the public the right to know information held by public authorities and schools are public authorities. This is a legal requirement, but it's interesting to see the opinions and attitudes expressed on this forum. I take it most of the contributors are paid out of taxpayer funds, i.e. funded by people like me. As regards the format of the response, a requester has the right to ask for the response in a particular electronic format such as Word document or Excel spreadsheet. I have requested a submission in a webform, i.e. html post response. One of the reasons for using a form is so the entry can be automatically checked. You wouldn't believe the number of schools who can't add up, for example their responses to questions 3, 4 and 5 add up to more than the total number of pupils they have in 2. The form prevents you submitting invalid numbers so I don't have to explain to each school how their addition is wrong! I've had responses from over 4000 schools so far. Some local authority areas are notable for the number of refusals, which suggests to me they are advising their schools not to respond. Secondary schools are much better at responding, despite the fact they have many more pupils. I assume this is because they are better organised and have better systems. Banjo - thank you for this: I also tend to screenshot (photo) the responses and submit them as a .pdf rather than in any Excel template provided by the requestor, ensuring that it is clear and legible. 6. What do you do to obtain details of all parents? There is no policy in place to obtain a missing parents details Request details of all parents in registration form Ask the registered parent(s), verbally or in writing. Ask parents to fill in a data collection sheet each year. Request a copy of the child's birth certificate Wait for the “absent” parent to contact the school o Keep an "Absent Parent Register" (missing parents can receive information if they provide SAEs) My response to Q6 would be "The school has no electronic or hard copy of the information requested" if it wasn't written down in a policy document. It's exactly the sort of evidence I need for my appeal against the ICO. JJonas that led me to the groups Facebook page and ultimately to what I believe to be the registrants personal Facebook I've had some schools phone me up at work demanding my postal address. You may notice my phone number is not in the original request. Please don't phone me up, I don't have time for a chat with every school in the country. Edited March 3, 2018 by bmaloney 1
minimoo Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) @bmaloney - "I am a tax payer and schools are funded by people like me." - I suspect you didn't mean to come across, but that came across as quite rude to me - please do remember the people employed by schools are also tax payers. In terms of the web form - I believe the law states "an address for correspondence"; whilst I think most people would be happy to consider 'an address' in the digital age with live in also to include an email address, I guess the question here is whether a web url is an address. After all, it is hard to have 2-way correspondence with a web form. Then again - I'm equally amazed that you've had schools phone you up demanding an address - I'm surprised they've got the time! You mentioned birth certificate - the DfE try to steer schools away from requesting to see birth certificates: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/389818/Free_School_Admissions_Common_Issues.pdf Once parents have been offered a place for their child, you can also ask for proof of birth date, but you must not ask for a ‘long’ birth certificate or any other documents which would include information about the parents. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/389388/School_Admissions_Code_2014_-_19_Dec.pdf Once a place has been offered, admission authorities may ask for proof of birth date, but must not ask for a ‘long’ birth certificate or other documents which would include information about the child’s parents. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/271552/2014_Spring_and_Summer_School_Census_Guide_for_primary__Version_1.1.pdf Full legal surname as the school believes it to be (Schools are not necessarily expected to have verified this from a birth certificate or other legal document). And the 2016/217 census documentation (where the government attempted to start asking for country of birth /nationality ) states a similar line. I'd be interested to hear your ideas on whether schools should be going further to obtain details (I know in our case, we ask for parent details on admission forms / data collection sheets etc - but then it's down to the person completing the form to inform the school.) And the guidance on birth certificates looks quite consistent from the DfE above, and what method/approach you think they should use to do this given the above. @jenatddm - guess you've got a view on this too ? Edited March 4, 2018 by minimoo
sparkeh Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 Individuals making FOI requests can state a “preference” for the format of the data but organisations are not legally obliged to follow that preference under any circumstance. Visiting an unknown website to submit data can be considered a security risk (confirmed by ICO). I am sure that schools would happily discuss an alternative format if the requester was willing to enter into discussion (which this requester was not). FOI requests must follow a set procedure to be valid. This one did not (as confirmed by the ICO). If the requester was willing to resubmit the request in a valid fashion then I am sure that schools would respond (the requester appears unwilling to do this). Yes the public have a right to information from public bodies and those must follow the rules, however the requesters must also follow the rules too
FN-GM Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 Visiting an unknown website to submit data can be considered a security risk (confirmed by ICO). Personally I don't see how as the information is made publicly available anyway. Unless you have to login with a username and password or something similar.
sparkeh Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) Personally I don't see how as the information is made publicly available anyway. Unless you have to login with a username and password or something similar. So you get an unsolicited email from an unfamiliar noreply@ address asking you to click a link? We spend a long time educating staff and pupils not to follow these kind of links in emails. Would you follow the link? I wouldn’t, especially after the ICO has told you not to [emoji6] I would rather discuss the issue with the requester by contacting them either at a valid, monitored email address or over phone but the requester is not willing to do this, hasn’t provided valid contact details and hasn’t submitted a valid request. The request is dead easy to fix and I’m surprised that given the strength of the requesters feelings on this matter, it hasn’t been done. Edited March 4, 2018 by sparkeh
Recommended Posts