Looking at ISPs for the next 3 years, what are you takes on the following companies?

[Kitkatninja]

Hi All,

 

I narrowed following companies down as perspective suppliers for the next 3 years internet access and what to know your experiences with them; good, bad or indifferent (and why pls):

 

1. SchoolBroadband (Talk-Straight)

2. RM

3. Oakford

4. Exa Networks

 

Any information, experience, etc would be greatly appreciated.

 

-Ken

[synaesthesia]

We're edging towards Exa at renewal time, as their Dark Fibre offering is in reach of our area and offers significant savings. We've heard nothing but good about their service and the filtering will certainly be an improvement over what we currently have with SB. Although Lightspeed is a decent system, I honestly could not recommend it as a hosted product, so you'd have to price up with an on-site device which SB will be able to provide.

SB's product from our experience has been marred with many issues as no doubt you're already aware, the majority down to the hosted filtering. The leased line has been reasonably solid although it needs work regarding the backup line setup; we've had multiple downtimes over the last few years and not once has the backup line been usable.

You're welcome to pop over and discuss if you like; especially with the possibility we may be direct colleagues sooner or later

[just_david]

I've had a conversation yesterday with exa saying their basic offsite filtering struggles with https - but get their on site package and it can.

 

Simple things like you could google f*** and get a bunch of videos of people screaming it and a nice google definition of the word.

their top package could block it (or so i was told)

 

same with some other search terms (i had to burn my browser history after testing it i swear to god). the websites would be blocked but thumbnails would still come up.

[GrumbleDook]

You could try emPSN ...

[localzuk]

We're with Exa for all our Trust schools. Only issue we've had was 2 days a few weeks ago where they had some upstream provider issues at a datacenter in London causing FTTC connections to be incredibly slow. The connections have been in a year now, and that's all we've had an issue with.

 

Support is always quick and helpful - you speak to engineers, not script monkeys.

[SchoolsBroadband]

We're edging towards Exa at renewal time, as their Dark Fibre offering is in reach of our area and offers significant savings. We've heard nothing but good about their service and the filtering will certainly be an improvement over what we currently have with SB. Although Lightspeed is a decent system, I honestly could not recommend it as a hosted product, so you'd have to price up with an on-site device which SB will be able to provide.

SB's product from our experience has been marred with many issues as no doubt you're already aware, the majority down to the hosted filtering. The leased line has been reasonably solid although it needs work regarding the backup line setup; we've had multiple downtimes over the last few years and not once has the backup line been usable.

You're welcome to pop over and discuss if you like; especially with the possibility we may be direct colleagues sooner or later

 

@synaesthesia,

 

we'll have Dark Fibre connectivity available at the end of the year. We are currently trialling this with BT Openreach and carrier partners. If you wanted to trial this for us then it's something we could probably do. I expect we'll be able to offer 10Gbit bearer connections nationwide very soon and it won't just be to where the smaller carriers (i.e City Fibre) has their network. it will be UK wide.

 

We're working on the process for upgrading current customers lines from a BT EAD based circuit to true Dark fibre (take BT's equipment off it and putting ours on the end instead) and we'll announce this once it's been finalised.

 

yes we've had some problems with hosted Lightspeed but not for the majority of customers plus we've a new solution just around the corner to resolve any previous issues. Again we're looking for beta testers for this too over the summer holidays.

 

Ref the backup that doesn't sound right. I'll give you a call.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[synaesthesia]

The backup thing is right; the issue was that the problems SB have had were infrastructure based, and as the backup worked off the same infra as the main leased line, it too was affected. I raised this as an issue ages ago with suggestions on having backup lines go to a different infrastructure including possibly bypassing the filtering but heard nothing back.

I think Craig is due to call me at some point today anyway (reasons unknown) but in fairness it would take a *huge* amount of work to convince the powers that be in our or other schools to remain with SB. 3 years is a long time and I'd be made to walk the plank if anything else went wrong.

[Fazza]

we've had multiple downtimes over the last few years and not once has the backup line been usable.

 

I guess that's the difference between having a backup line or a backup ISP. It's like having a spare mobile phone on the same network, if one phone breaks then great you can still make a call but if the 'line' goes down as both devices connect to the same place you'll be without a service.

 

When we used to have a backup line we chose a completely different company to that of our main ISP so if the line and/or data centre went down we did have a workable (albeit slower) connection.

[synaesthesia]

We imagined it would have been taken care of automatically. It's an entirely different line, via a different carrier but all terminates in the same kit at SB's end which should never have been the case, otherwise it'd only be any good if the LL for whatever reason went down - and that is unlikely. Shouldn't be too much work to do as suggested and terminate at different routers/filters at ISP end.

[SchoolsBroadband]

We imagined it would have been taken care of automatically. It's an entirely different line, via a different carrier but all terminates in the same kit at SB's end which should never have been the case, otherwise it'd only be any good if the LL for whatever reason went down - and that is unlikely. Shouldn't be too much work to do as suggested and terminate at different routers/filters at ISP end.

 

We are restricted with what we can and can't do because of Lightspeed and how that functions in an ISP environment. Leased lines do break, carrier interconnects also break and we have customers backup lines work 100% ok in these scenarios all automatically back and forth until the leased line is fixed.

 

The next solution released shortly will get around this problem if we've seen an issue with Lightspeed.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[SchoolsBroadband]

I guess that's the difference between having a backup line or a backup ISP. It's like having a spare mobile phone on the same network, if one phone breaks then great you can still make a call but if the 'line' goes down as both devices connect to the same place you'll be without a service.

 

When we used to have a backup line we chose a completely different company to that of our main ISP so if the line and/or data centre went down we did have a workable (albeit slower) connection.

 

you're right here @Fazza although many customers want to be able to keep the same real world IP address, use the same hosted applications e.g. filtering which are on the main ISP too.

 

it really depends what the customer is wanting to achieve as there's pro's and conn's of both.

 

Dave

[IrritableTech]

We've been a happy Schools Broadband customer for nearly four years (we renewed last year) across our MAT and some other schools we work with. Thankfully for us our cluster of lightspeed rockets has been very reliable over that period as too has our various FTTC, EoFTTC and leased lines. As you've heard some customers have had some trouble with one of the clusters in particular and those issues are well documented on here by those who were suffering them. We've found that helpdesk staff are in the main knowledgeable and sales staff are keen to provide the right solution for the school and ensure schools are happy.

 

The only other company in your list I have had experience with is Exa. They provide to one of the primary schools we support. I spent quite a bit of time looking at their product last time around and the team are great. Friendly, knowledgeable and accommodating. They use a different pricing structure however and throttle bandwidth - I found if you want to max out the FTTC connections they end up being not quite so competitive. I've heard excellent things for a number of years regarding their connectivity and I was glad to see last year that their in house filtering product was getting a major over haul. Previous to this I think most secondaries were popping additional filtering on the line and primary schools were just setting and forgetting. Sadly no monitoring was really possible. Hopefully the new version is doing everything it should now it's a year old.

 

I think the possibilities are very interesting for the future with what David alluded to. ISPs being able to provide equipment at both ends of a BT fibre opens up an interesting dimention - and fingers crossed a good bit of competition and price reductions!

[EXA_Mark]

I've had a conversation yesterday with exa saying their basic offsite filtering struggles with https - but get their on site package and it can.

 

Hi just_david

 

I think you are referring to our SurfProtect Cloud product (the oldest version of our software), which as a stand alone does not do the HTTPS side. However SurfProtect Proxy (no additional charge or hardware required) does HTTPS.

 

The ever-changing landscape of the web and in particular on SSL/TLS encrypted sites is a challenge to all filtering systems and older versions that were not designed with so much HTTPS traffic and sites like Google and other search engines swapping over to HTTPS in the past few years.

 

But we did see this coming and work directly with Google, and other organisations and browsers to see how best to keep ahead.

 

About five years ago we launched SurfProtect Fusion (which is the onsite version I believe you are referring to). With this version we install local hardware to act as LAN integration, which then does HTTPS and full AD integration. SurfProtect Fusion is what the vast majority of our schools use and has been our recommended version since launch.

 

HOWEVER Our newest version, SurfProtect Quantum, does AD & HTTPS (and much more) but does not require any hardware on site, and this is what I suspect will become the default version for all schools moving forward, as it is fully featured and doesn't require our customers to have to buy extra hardware.

 

SurfProtect Quantum is officially in early release at the moment, and we have about 50 schools running it, it will come out of early release into full release over the summer, but if you want to try it now let me know.

 

Hope this helps.

[EXA_Mark]

Hi All,

 

I narrowed following companies down as perspective suppliers for the next 3 years internet access and what to know your experiences with them; good, bad or indifferent (and why pls):

 

1. SchoolBroadband (Talk-Straight)

2. RM

3. Oakford

4. Exa Networks

 

Any information, experience, etc would be greatly appreciated.

 

-Ken

 

Hi Ken,

 

If you PM me with the area your school is in I can put you in touch with other schools who use us if that helps.

[just_david]

Hi just_david

 

I think you are referring to our SurfProtect Cloud product (the oldest version of our software), which as a stand alone does not do the HTTPS side. However SurfProtect Proxy (no additional charge or hardware required) does HTTPS.

 

The ever-changing landscape of the web and in particular on SSL/TLS encrypted sites is a challenge to all filtering systems and older versions that were not designed with so much HTTPS traffic and sites like Google and other search engines swapping over to HTTPS in the past few years.

 

But we did see this coming and work directly with Google, and other organisations and browsers to see how best to keep ahead.

 

About five years ago we launched SurfProtect Fusion (which is the onsite version I believe you are referring to). With this version we install local hardware to act as LAN integration, which then does HTTPS and full AD integration. SurfProtect Fusion is what the vast majority of our schools use and has been our recommended version since launch.

 

HOWEVER Our newest version, SurfProtect Quantum, does AD & HTTPS (and much more) but does not require any hardware on site, and this is what I suspect will become the default version for all schools moving forward, as it is fully featured and doesn't require our customers to have to buy extra hardware.

 

SurfProtect Quantum is officially in early release at the moment, and we have about 50 schools running it, it will come out of early release into full release over the summer, but if you want to try it now let me know.

 

Hope this helps.

yup thats more or less what I was told, but couldn't remember for the life of me the package names.

[EXA_Mark]

We're edging towards Exa at renewal time, as their Dark Fibre offering is in reach of our area and offers significant savings. We've heard nothing but good about their service and the filtering will certainly be an improvement over what we currently have with SB. Although Lightspeed is a decent system, I honestly could not recommend it as a hosted product, so you'd have to price up with an on-site device which SB will be able to provide.

SB's product from our experience has been marred with many issues as no doubt you're already aware, the majority down to the hosted filtering. The leased line has been reasonably solid although it needs work regarding the backup line setup; we've had multiple downtimes over the last few years and not once has the backup line been usable.

You're welcome to pop over and discuss if you like; especially with the possibility we may be direct colleagues sooner or later

 

Hi Synaesthesia,

 

If you need to know anything more about our DarkLight (Dark Fibre) product let me know, but I suspect you probably know all about it already.

 

The Openreach DFA (Dark Fibre) is something we've already worked with on the trial stage and is interesting to us, and will be available at launch (I suspect in October). Because it uses the same principals as EAD circuits, it means that you (as an ISP) only have to have a Data Centre or PoP within 46km to be able to offer the service, so it gives really long range coverage, the downside to it is like EAD, pricing is based on a per M basis, and is therefore variable, unlike for instance our DarkLight product, which for example 1Gbps on Dark Fibre is less than £6K per year. As a rough example, if you were just five Km away from your ISP's data centre the cost for 1Gbps DFA (based on expected pricing) would be around £9K per year, if you were 10Km away that price would be nearer £11K, with an install expected of around £1,500-£2,000, compared to just £500 install on DarkLight.

 

So yes DFA via Openreach will let more people get access to huge speeds cheaper than ever before, and we will be providing it from launch, but it will still be very much a secondary product to DarkLight for those who can get both.

 

If you would like to speak to any of our customers that are already on DarkLight let me know and I'll put you in touch.

 

Oh and SurfProtect Quantum is now in early release

[mrwoberts]

We've just signed up with Virgin. They offer various packages to schools and one infant school has opted for a 350mbps solution (20:1 contention ratio) for £ 65 per month. Virgin has stated that the minimum they will receive is 18mbps, but that is nearly double what they currently get. Best case scenario, the school have a staggering uplift. We've also gone with an iBoss appliance for the filtering, monitoring and reporting. Virgin are probably not the best comms company, but if you have a good intermediary and put up with slow sales contact then it's a winner.

[synaesthesia]

I remember when it all went out to tender when our local provider EMBC went. Virgin couldn't have been less interested if they tried and probably came away with about 1 signup out of hundreds of schools.

And cheers, @exa_mark - one of your guys is coming to see us on Monday - @wagnerk, thinking about that, would you like to come along?

[GrumbleDook]

I know I mentioned EMBC earlier as part of a joke but EMBC is still available in Northants. They are still a provider and never went.

All that happened is that the LA, at the schools' request, did not sign up for a contract for the schools.

 

Apologies for the thread hijack, but just wanted to clarify.

[ivesheadadmin]

We have been using Schools Broadband from the very start after leaving EMBC. We now have 11 of the schools we support with Schools Broadband and have been very happy with the service and support we have received over the years.

 

If there has been downtime it has been when BT have got something wrong and this has normally been when there have been issues with their nice new shiny green cabinets.

 

All the schools we support use Google for Education so really heavily on the internet. We have been using this for 4 years now and have worked very closely with Schools Broadband on this as the filtering for Chromebooks and Chromeboxes was something new to all parties including Lightspeed but between us all we now have a fantastic filtering solution that works for students at home with their schools accounts as well.

With all the work we have done we have now become a Google reference schools and have had a lot of schools come and see what we are doing. If the internet services we received were not up to standard this would not have been achievable.

 

We also worked with our Local authority a few years ago and was the first school in our area to achieve an E-safety award which we are now doing with our other schools. Again this was down to Schools Broadband and Lightspeed getting the filtering right for us.

 

Overall we have been more than happy with the level of support and services we have received and would be more than happy to recommend Schools Broadband and would also be happy to talk to anyone direct about it.

[Fazza]

We've just signed up with Virgin.

 

They don't want our money as they ignore all emails and phone calls! Very strange company to do that.

[SchoolsBroadband]

Hi Synaesthesia,

 

If you need to know anything more about our DarkLight (Dark Fibre) product let me know, but I suspect you probably know all about it already.

 

The Openreach DFA (Dark Fibre) is something we've already worked with on the trial stage and is interesting to us, and will be available at launch (I suspect in October). Because it uses the same principals as EAD circuits, it means that you (as an ISP) only have to have a Data Centre or PoP within 46km to be able to offer the service, so it gives really long range coverage, the downside to it is like EAD, pricing is based on a per M basis, and is therefore variable, unlike for instance our DarkLight product, which for example 1Gbps on Dark Fibre is less than £6K per year. As a rough example, if you were just five Km away from your ISP's data centre the cost for 1Gbps DFA (based on expected pricing) would be around £9K per year, if you were 10Km away that price would be nearer £11K, with an install expected of around £1,500-£2,000, compared to just £500 install on DarkLight.

 

So yes DFA via Openreach will let more people get access to huge speeds cheaper than ever before, and we will be providing it from launch, but it will still be very much a secondary product to DarkLight for those who can get both.

 

If you would like to speak to any of our customers that are already on DarkLight let me know and I'll put you in touch.

 

Oh and SurfProtect Quantum is now in early release

 

 

 

That's kind of right Mark although the average length of an EAD LA circuit (what DFA will replace) is only 1.8km. 99% of all carriers will go back to the local BT Exchange and use a DFA LA based circuit which will cost less than a normal DFA between a couple of data centres.

 

Also most carriers will amortise the install cost over the contract term so it will be £0 install for everyone.

 

Furthermore, DFA can be run at any speed and isn't limited to 1Gbit. It can be run at 10Gbit, 40Gbit, 100Gbit its all down to what optics you put on the end of it as its just a piece of fibre.

 

Finally and most importantly in my opinion, both DFA and EAD products are based on BT fibre. BT fibre is installed in a huge amount of locations (and I don't mean outside the front door with digging required, I mean already terminated in the building) so there are generally no ECC charges and we've had installs completed in 2 weeks.

 

YES 2 WEEKS FOR A LEASED LINE INSTALL!!!!

 

This is thanks to BT's quick win policy where they now use a multi-skilled engineer to perform an install rather than different engineers from different departments.

 

Using PIA or digging fibre from other carriers in to a site takes such a long time. We've a school in Leeds that decided to leave to use another cheaper carrier. After nearly 18 months they are still using us as although the other carrier / ISP said it'd take 3 months they are still waiting.

 

I'm all for competition and using other carriers to be creative and get good pricing but there are downsides to doing so too.

 

Dave

[nicholab]

It seems that the next offering from ISP/Openreach is about 6 months away. These seem to be dark fibre, fibre on demand and G.fast/LR-VDSL. I think that our next contract will be to one of these products. For now we have signed with a 3 year 100/100 leased line contract with saving of several £1000 a year.

[sparkeh]

We've had the Virgin experience too. No interest in our business at all, very odd.

 

We went with Wave9 and gave been extremely happy. @Wave9_Lee et al were very helpful and the transition was super smooth. Not like a typical broadband migration at all!

Edited July 19, 2017 by sparkeh

[Opendium_Steve]

I can't recommend RM - they constantly seem to have reliability problems with their proxies and you end up talking to a foreign callcentre who have very little technical expertise. Some of our customers have unfortunately had to keep hassling them for months to get problems resolved and have had to make repeated change requests for things that RM have said have been done, but which quite obviously haven't.