No user serviceable parts!

[webman]

Yeah. Our cheaper standard computers serve us more of a purpose than a mac would, and have the benefits of user-servicable and replacable parts. It's win-win.

 

Going out of our way to buy more expensive hardware that has less functional use which will give us more administrative headache would be pointless.

[torledo]

Yeah. Our cheaper standard computers serve us more of a purpose than a mac would, and have the benefits of user-servicable and replacable parts. It's win-win.

 

Going out of our way to buy more expensive hardware that has less functional use which will give us more administrative headache would be pointless.

 

both of those last two points are debatable.....or imo plain false. How do you know there's an administrative headache if you've never administered them ?

 

And i would say they are more functional than a pc....plus they are user serviceable for organisations that have purchased over a certain number that are within x numer of years old and have Apple Certified Techinicians on staff. So for schools making a substantial investment in new Apple equipment they are few concerns on the administrative side other than the skills training required.

[gaz350]

I understand where Webman is coming from.

 

We used to have a 95% mac network. over the last 3 years we've invested heavily in windows infrastructure. It takes alot of time and money to make the jump to fully support a new OS.

 

We now have a network that is 50% Mac 20% which is flexible and 30% windows XP.

[Midget]

I really hate having to remove HDDs from a pre-intel apple laptop. You have to remove all the screws around the case and in the battery compartment, undo the clips, take off the back, then take off the front, then remove all the shielding then remove some of the components and then remote teh HDD, there aer about 16 different screw types and at least 50screws in total.

 

intel macs ftw. take out battery, undo 3 screws, take off shield, slide out HDD.

 

 

oh and for the people who think apple se high qual parts, there was a 2-3year period where their laptops (g4 ibook and powerbooks) had rubbish cheapest possibly made, chinese, seagate momentus drives which have a tendancy to eat themselves (heads rip off the metal from the platters)

[localzuk]

Yeah. Our cheaper standard computers serve us more of a purpose than a mac would, and have the benefits of user-servicable and replacable parts. It's win-win.

 

Going out of our way to buy more expensive hardware that has less functional use which will give us more administrative headache would be pointless.

 

So, your pc's have a working life expectancy of at least 5 years with no expected slow down at the end, due to having used cheap parts? The PC's we install are currently at least 2.4Ghz C2D's with 2GB Ram and 120GB HDD's at least. Simply to ensure they last properly without a period where they are slow and irritating to the kids. And even at this spec, we're worried about their usefulness should we update to Vista or it's replacement in a few years.

 

Also, the Neovo screens I have come across have been the worst brand I've ever used. The colour consistency across the panel is incredibly low, and failure rates were very high (the place I used them had several hundred, and hated them).

 

Finally, adding in the fact that you can dual boot OS X and Windows on the mac's, allowing you to have a mixed network to allow for practical usage of skills between different OS's is a big bonus.

 

Anyone who buys a computer for a school for £259 is just asking for trouble in a couple of years...

 

oh and for the people who think apple se high qual parts, there was a 2-3year period where their laptops (g4 ibook and powerbooks) had rubbish cheapest possibly made, chinese, seagate momentus drives which have a tendancy to eat themselves (heads rip off the metal from the platters)

 

Agreed, they did go through a while using cheap components. This was some of the earlier macbooks and later ibooks I believe, and they had major problems with logic boards too. But all company's go through bad spells - look at MS, they are up and down like nobody's business.

[SYNACK]

both of those last two points are debatable.....or imo plain false. How do you know there's an administrative headache if you've never administered them ?

 

I have attempted to integrate OSX on to a Windows network twice before, admitidly just after 10.4 came out and then the first major service release. I thought how hard can it be, its based on a sensible OS that is claimed by apple to be able to integrate easily.

 

Ha, several tutorials later and after a lot of searching through the net I still could not authenticate to the domain. You know what I got, from the 'superior' easy to use 'intuitive' OS when I tried...

 

A little fisher price cutesy animation of the login box shaking side to side. No error message, no logs, nothing even remotely useful. At this point the tutorials all diverged and suggested everything from installing the full X11 payload and taking a world trip around the command line or changing a whole pack of settings and setting up another mac to monitor the first mac remotely.

 

At this point having wasted many hours on this utterly intuitive and remarkably 'usable' pile of binary excretion I called the time of death on that little foray into mac 'compatibility'.

 

So yes, on a Windows network at least while I was still willing to waste time trying they are a headache. If you want to run them and manage them with the ease of a Windows solution you will need a Mac server, just pray that the policies apply to the clients correctly. Or just follow the Mac code, spend more money.

 

Oh you want to do something that is not on the box, get out your wallet. Oh when we said that our solution was superior we meant with this extra software we just need your wallet. Oh you closed the screen of your laptop and they keyboard melted to it, its obviously your fault for not being stylish enough to have your laptop open the whole time and so it isn't covered under warranty.....

 

We'll just need your wallet!!!! :mad::mad:

 

/rant

Edited March 14, 2008 by SYNACK

[mattx]

Our new Maintenance chap started to have a clear out last week - guess what he found gathering dust in the loft ? Yep, a load of really old Apple macs !!

I am sooooo excited at the moment I just can't contain myself.

Out lot our off as from Good Friday for a few weeks and guess whats also arriving ? I huge walk in skip !!

I don't know what to do first - throw them in, place them in carefully and then smash them with a sledge hammer, set fire to them, build a tower out of them and then knock them over - anyone care to join me in a game of Apple Mac Jenga ? Hey I don't even mind loosing !!

With that and the fact I am also dumping Sophos and rolling out Trend means I will be in extacy heaven.

I think I'm going to explode any mintute !!!

Can Smashing up Apple Macs and dumping Sophos be better than sex ? I'll let you know.

[torledo]

I have attempted to integrate OSX on to a Windows network twice before, admitidly just after 10.4 came out and then the first major service release. I thought how hard can it be, its based on a sensible OS that is claimed by apple to be able to integrate easily.

 

Ha, several tutorials later and after a lot of searching through the net I still could not authenticate to the domain. You know what I got, from the 'superior' easy to use 'intuitive' OS when I tried...

 

A little fisher price cutesy animation of the login box shaking side to side. No error message, no logs, nothing even remotely useful. At this point the tutorials all diverged and suggested everything from installing the full X11 payload and taking a world trip around the command line or changing a whole pack of settings and setting up another mac to monitor the first mac remotely.

 

At this point having wasted many hours on this utterly intuitive and remarkably 'usable' pile of binary excretion I called the time of death on that little foray into mac 'compatibility'.

 

So yes, on a Windows network at least while I was still willing to waste time trying they are a headache. If you want to run them and manage them with the ease of a Windows solution you will need a Mac server, just pray that the policies apply to the clients correctly. Or just follow the Mac code, spend more money.

 

Oh you want to do something that is not on the box, get out your wallet. Oh when we said that our solution was superior we meant with this extra software we just need your wallet. Oh you closed the screen of your laptop and they keyboard melted to it, its obviously your fault for not being stylish enough to have your laptop open the whole time and so it isn't covered under warranty.....

 

We'll just need your wallet!!!! :mad::mad:

 

/rant

 

What?!!! Easiest way to manage osx computers would be to use osx server. Whatever next, want to manage windows xp clients ? want them to authenticate to AD ? then you'll be needing a windows 2003 server. The cheek of it.

 

You do make some valid points about the pitfalls of integration in a windows environment, and managing in a pure osx environment isn't a bed of roses either. But there are administrative headaches with managing incredibly-easy-to-setup windows server 2003/xp environments. Shit, Microsoft can't even get their OWN products to play nice together - heed the xp and vista on the same network warnings.

 

In terms of osx server, we've never had to purchase anything ontop of what comes pre-installed or what is also available for download from the Apple website....

 

And here's some news for you.....want to do any kind of professional video work in Windows and you'll need to get you're wallet. No difference with OSX there. Last time i checked, Office 2007 and Dreamweaver CS3 weren't in the Windows 'box' either. No,What you get in the retail 'box' is a load of useless utilities that just clog up the hard drive and the desktop.

 

i've recommend on numerous occasions to osx newbs to buy osx server when building a 'mac suite' or something similar....Even if it means buying the cheap as chips 10 user version on the equally cheap mac mini. Plus in the not too distant future the xserve will represent a better value proposition than ANY Dell or HP server once the creators of parallels come out with a server virtualization product that'll allow windows linux and osx on the the same box.

 

The trouble is synack you've given the game away in a previous post, as to the real reasons why you're ranting about apple products.....

 

you use ntbackup, so you're school is pisspoor like webman. boohoo.

 

What little investment you do have means you can't do an osx environment properly. That's nothing to do with bulging wallets...more to do with priority of resources. As i've said you could have an osx server for a few machines on a mac mini for less than 600 pounds. Or you're school could invest in some osx training so that next time something 'melts' (hahahah) you can replace the part yourself, or at the very least you have a relationship with a supplier who will gladly repair it for you.... however much of a dunce you've been.

[mattx]

What little investment you do have means you can't do an osx environment properly

 

Not wanting to start a flame session but that sort of comment is quite uncalled for - debate the MAC / PC debate issue, don't knock a school just to try and get one over.

 

so you're school is pisspoor like webman. boohoo.

 

Again, debate the PC / MAC issue - that sort of comment won't do you any favours at all.

 

however much of a dunce you've been.

 

Hmmmm - a bit OTT me thinks. I think you need one of my chill pills.

 

Can I suggest a bit of fun when debating the whole PC / MAC point - like my previous post ?

Edited March 15, 2008 by mattx

[torledo]

Not wanting to start a flame session but that sort of comment is quite uncalled for - debate the MAC / PC debate issue, don't knock a school just to try and get one over.

 

 

 

Again, debate the PC / MAC issue - that sort of comment won't do you any favours at all.

 

 

 

Hmmmm - a bit OTT me thinks. I think you need one of my chill pills.

 

Can I suggest a bit of fun when debating the whole PC / MAC point - like my previous post ?

 

Unfortunately, the cost whingeing seems to come up far too often.....synack himself brought up the oft-used statements about paying extra for stuff not in the box. So what i'm saying is there is a cost element to buying windows software aswell so if finances are a bit tight that's where you're financial resources should be going - into maintaining you're windows networks. And leave the osx side of things to those of us who do make the investment every year, both in hardware, and software licensing and don't whine about the costs.

 

Because for us TCO is not dissimilar to our windows network, plus our apple kit gives us greater flexibility.

 

Apple are the largest hardware provider to education in the united states.....that's a pretty remarkable position given some of the comments from so called education specialists in this thread who seem to think they know a lot more a about osx and apple hardware TCO and sysadmin than Apple sysadmins in the large US and UK universities.

 

Synack has actually been comparatively reasoned in this thread in his arguments. He does have a point about the apple service and support model (if that's a point he's trying to make) and i've already agreed with his comments about integrating osx into windows environments.

 

But you and webman are just trolls when it comes to reasoned argument about Apple products in educatiuon. And don't try and moderate this thread when you're the one who's trying to wind people up/sh*t stir.

 

Also, you're guilty of selectively quoting me out of context. And i wasn't calling anyone specifically a dunce. Just trying to make the point that if you (collective you) were to do something stupid, such as maybe spill a ribena over the keyboard, that you'd have an apple supplier who could replace it for you....more to do with relationship with supplier than Apple warranty small print. Our repairs don't go to apple....and if there is a product defect it will be repaired or replaced.

 

I have much more grievance with our alleged supplier of our windows server and pc's (small company, not Dell or HP) who are completely useless despite making a nice sum when everything was supplied and installed.

Edited March 15, 2008 by torledo

[mattx]

But you and webman are just trolls when it comes to reasoned argument about Apple products in educatiuon.

 

Not really, I like a debate about the subject matter like any other person - I just don't get personal about it - I enjoy a bit of fun in my exchanges.

In regards to a reasoned argument about Apple in education - I've never seen any !! And I doubt I will.

 

such as maybe spill a ribena over the keyboard

 

I don't drink ribena. We don't allow any food or drink to be consumed near our equipment.

 

Apple are the largest hardware provider to education in the united states.....

 

Good for them, but we don't live in the United States - [ thank god ] - we live in the UK.

[webman]

Re: the cost. Yeah, fine, Windows comes with bugger all (Linux is a different story, however). But the initial outlay for our desktop PCs is a hell of a lot lower than if we were to start out with macs. This means we can buy the required software anyway; and probably have a higher number of machines running it.

 

I think the apple fans (the human ones ) on this forum are getting a bit sentimental over the use of macs in schools, and are using any reason and argument to justify their use of macs, when standard PCs have the potential to do exactly the same.

 

As to personal comments, water and duck's back... we're all friends here

[mattx]

when standard PCs have the potential to do exactly the same.

 

And more, and better and cheaper.

[localzuk]

So, we've gone full circle, mattx and webman have ignored the fact that they are comparing cheap as chips PC's with low spec, to high spec mac's. They've ignored that windows provides bugger all extras, and OS X does. They've ignored pretty much every positive aspect of using macs, instead falling back to 'windows PC's are cheaper' over and over again, whilst throwing in the equally pointless 'getting windows to manage mac's is a nightmare, therefore mac's are a nightmare' argument.

 

I'm sorry, but your arguments are simply weak. I have now got 8 mac's in my school for kids to use and a mac mini with os x server on it to manage it. Works flawlessly so far. It took about a day to set up properly, including a call to applecare as there was a small problem which they quickly solved. Also, a quick point on this, I'd never used OS X server before and picking up how to use it was easier than windows 2003 server.

 

So, can we have some non-cost related arguments please? The fact that you spend too little on your workstations is not a good argument.

[webman]

So let's say we go and buy our desktop PCs for the same price as a basic mac, ~£700. That changes nothing apart from the fact we've wasted loads of money because we get fewer machines...

 

I'm not just comparing the cost! There's also the educational impact they have and the amount of people that would use them at our school. Nobody wants them, they wouldn't get used, ergo a waste of money!

 

Spend over £8k on around 10 macs and the associated server and 'applecare' that would hardly be used. Or even if they were, by a select few....(very low educational benefit to students) or spend the same amount and get over 20 PCs that run all current network software that just about everybody could use (higher educational benefit)?

Edited March 15, 2008 by webman

[localzuk]

So let's say we go and buy our desktop PCs for the same price as a basic mac, ~£700. That changes nothing apart from the fact we've wasted loads of money because we get fewer machines...

 

I'm not just comparing the cost! There's also the educational impact they have and the amount of people that would use them at our school. Nobody wants them, they wouldn't get used, ergo a waste of money!

 

Spend over £8k on around 10 macs and the associated server and 'applecare' that would hardly be used. Or even if they were, by a select few....(very low educational benefit to students) or spend the same amount and get over 20 PCs that run all current network software that just about everybody could use (higher educational benefit)?

 

Are you taking into account the fact that you have purchased licenses for windows, windows server, CALs etc? You are still not making an accurate comparison.

 

A base imac: £600 + £100 AppleCare

A server, if you're only getting 10: £300 mac mini, £200 os x server TOTAL: £500

These imac's can run more than any standard windows pc, as they can also run windows if required.

 

A comparable brand name pc: HP dc7500, £500 + £120 for a 20" in TFT + £20 for a dvd-rw drive

A server, if you're only getting 10: HP dc7700, £300. Software: £56 (SELECT) + £40 (CAL's) + Exchange £108 + Anti-virus (Sophos) £140 PA for 10 users: TOTAL: £644

 

Any other software is an extra that would have to be considered on top of either. However, taking into account that a dc7500 and a 20" TFT will take up huge amounts of space, you could probably use a smaller tft - but then it wouldn't be a suitable comparison.

 

So, the difference in price seems to be the £100 apple care.

 

You state in your posts, webman, that they don't add any value in your school (something I would argue about as well) but every comment before this one has been a generalised 'they're more expensive, you can do less with them' type comment. When in fact, they have roughly the same TCO and the mac's have the ability to also run windows software too, if you were so inclined to do so.

[torledo]

So let's say we go and buy our desktop PCs for the same price as a basic mac, ~£700. That changes nothing apart from the fact we've wasted loads of money because we get fewer machines...

 

I'm not just comparing the cost! There's also the educational impact they have and the amount of people that would use them at our school. Nobody wants them, they wouldn't get used, ergo a waste of money!

 

Spend over £8k on around 10 macs and the associated server and 'applecare' that would hardly be used. Or even if they were, by a select few....(very low educational benefit to students) or spend the same amount and get over 20 PCs that run all current network software that just about everybody could use (higher educational benefit)?

 

Re: educational aspect, it really is important for kids in you're school to become familiar with using apple equipment and osx + apps..... I won't deny that anything you want to do on a mac can be done on a pc, but there are countless companies particularly in new media that are using macs and industry standard software such as Final Cut pro and uni's use them quite extensively.....isn't it important to sample life outside of c:

 

Plus there are a lot of developers e.g the RoR lot, that prefer macs as their working environment....plus a lot of apple hardware/software solutions are really elegant.

 

And i say that as someone who predominantly works in a windows environment.

[webman]

Our software licences are already covered. Web based open-source email, Free Symantec AV through LEA, MS-Sponsored school (to my personal disagreement). The only software costs would be specialist software as required.

 

Keeping on-topic; Our workstations are unbranded and use standard hardware which is fantastic for maintenance and if something fails. Parts can be swapped and changed to get them back up and running at minimal cost and minimal time, meaning less disruption to the users.

 

I totally disagree our workstations have the same TCO as macs.

 

Torldeo...

 

We already know that departments don't currently want macs. No students have requested macs. Are you suggesting we waste thousands of pounds on a mac experiment just for them not to get used?

 

Are you saying we should use Apple, or are you hinting at transferable skills?

[localzuk]

Our software licences are already covered. Web based open-source email, Free Symantec AV through LEA, MS-Sponsored school (to my personal disagreement). The only software costs would be specialist software as required.

 

None of that is free. The email system will require administration, more so than a couple of clicks in the email server in os x. The AV is top sliced money, so is actually costing you something even if you don't use it. No school in the UK should be sponsered by Microsoft, as I believe it is against european competition laws (or so I've been told by several LEA bods).

 

Keeping on-topic; Our workstations are unbranded and use standard hardware which is fantastic for maintenance and if something fails. Parts can be swapped and changed to get them back up and running at minimal cost and minimal time, meaning less disruption to the users.

 

I totally disagree our workstations have the same TCO as macs.

 

Do you mean you build your own? You must have loads of time available to do that if you do! I wouldn't have the time to be able to build PC's.

 

Or buy from a small producer? What happens if that small producer goes out of business (like many seem to be doing now).

 

We already know that departments don't currently want macs. No students have requested macs. Are you suggesting we waste thousands of pounds on a mac experiment just for them not to get used?

 

Are you saying we should use Apple, or are you hinting at transferable skills?

 

I think what he is suggesting is that you seem to think that Apple is completely useless, when in fact it is the second largest general OS market in the world and therefore being able to teach skills which are transferrable between windows and os x would be a good thing.

 

Why wouldn't they get used? Every new system that gets installed in our school is accompanied with adequate training which shows what the systems can do. So when I installed the mac's in our library, I showed the people who would use them what they can do. They are now used every single day for video editing and for other tasks.

[webman]

None of that is free. The email system will require administration, more so than a couple of clicks in the email server in os x.

 

Yes, it costs time, that's all. Very little now it's set up just like most servers. My point about our free email server was a response to your MSexChange CAL cost you slipped into the workstation cost. And the same with AV - yeah, there isn't a charge for us, maybe it's included in our SLA - even though that is just for MIS but I know that we don't have to worry about it.

 

Do you mean you build your own? You must have loads of time available to do that if you do! I wouldn't have the time to be able to build PC's.

 

No, we just don't buy HP/Dell/RM and yes we buy from small manufacturers. If they go out of business, that's life. Atleast they use standard parts which we can replace ourselves. We believe the machines we buy are good value for money and we've found them perfectly fine for what we want over the past 5 years.

 

Why wouldn't they get used? Every new system that gets installed in our school is accompanied with adequate training which shows what the systems can do. So when I installed the mac's in our library, I showed the people who would use them what they can do. They are now used every single day for video editing and for other tasks.

 

Fantastic. Wish we had the time to learn ourselves and give training ourselves. But even the best training doesn't guarantee it's usage. Again, we're not wasting time, resources and a lot of money on something that won't get used.

[localzuk]

Ok, so I now have complete confirmation that you simply don't like Apple computers and don't have any real reason not to use them other than your existing investment in windows systems. I'm going to drop it now, as I don't think there is anything that would convince you otherwise, even if apple computers were free.

[webman]

Yes, personally I don't like apple - that's no secret. But what I don't do, is let my personal opinions affect work decisions. If art/music were to turn around and say "can we have macs" and were convincing enough they'd be used, then they could have them. Providing we were given adequate training, the time to do it and of course the extra resources.

[SYNACK]

Whatever next, want to manage windows xp clients ? want them to authenticate to AD ? then you'll be needing a windows 2003 server. The cheek of it.

 

As I understand it it is quite possible to set up a windows xp station to authenticate from a linux + samba system, I think that is even on the wiki.

 

But there are administrative headaches with managing incredibly-easy-to-setup windows server 2003/xp environments. Shit, Microsoft can't even get their OWN products to play nice together - heed the xp and vista on the same network warnings.

 

The thing is that Windows 2003 server is not marketed as being super easy to use and administer or even intuitive, however this seems to be foundation on which Macs are advertised by the company and their followers.

 

And here's some news for you.....want to do any kind of professional video work in Windows and you'll need to get you're wallet. No difference with OSX there. Last time i checked, Office 2007 and Dreamweaver CS3 weren't in the Windows 'box' either. No,What you get in the retail 'box' is a load of useless utilities that just clog up the hard drive and the desktop.

 

Yes, you are right Windows machines usually come loaded to the brim with rubbish utilities but again it is the advertisements and the arguments that are at issue here. Macs are held up as the example of a pc that can do everything better by enthusiasts (including the company itself) and this is just not the case. Yes you have to buy Office and Dreamweaver but that is commonly known. A Macolite will sell the consumer on the promise of everything and then after purchase will 'remind' them that to do the pro stuff they actually need to buy more stuff.

 

i've recommend on numerous occasions to osx newbs to buy osx server when building a 'mac suite' or something similar....Even if it means buying the cheap as chips 10 user version on the equally cheap mac mini. Plus in the not too distant future the xserve will represent a better value proposition than ANY Dell or HP server once the creators of parallels come out with a server virtualization product that'll allow windows linux and osx on the the same box.

 

Heres my issue with that, apple has repeatedly made clear that it does not do stuff for enterprise. Its policies on the iphone and onsite responce service (none) show that. The only benifit to having an apple server that can run OSX is if you actually use OSX.

 

I would prefer to have a business grade machine with business grade support, I know that I would not be giving up the 3 year 3 hour onsite support for the capability to run an OS that I have no need for.

 

The trouble is synack you've given the game away in a previous post, as to the real reasons why you're ranting about apple products.....

 

you use ntbackup, so you're school is pisspoor like webman. boohoo.

 

Massive assumption there, I work for several different schools. Primary level but still, at the school that I did this little mac experiment in budget for computers is not the issue, we have 4 pcs per room excluding specialty areas. Management support (for macs) was, we had some older macs, we actually get all of the latest Mac software free through our countries school deal. I was doing this to try and expose the students to Macs as well, I was not asking for full Windows like management of the Macs, just simple authentication and mapping of a drive. We only had 4 old Macs so setting up a server for them seemed a tad excessive.

 

What little investment you do have means you can't do an osx environment properly. That's nothing to do with bulging wallets...more to do with priority of resources. As i've said you could have an osx server for a few machines on a mac mini for less than 600 pounds.

 

My question would be why does it have to involve so many resources to get it going. What is it about macs that require the special treatment and investment for every little thing. I was simply after a universal logon for the older macs to extend what the students had knowledge of.

 

Or you're school could invest in some osx training so that next time something 'melts' (hahahah) you can replace the part yourself, or at the very least you have a relationship with a supplier who will gladly repair it for you.... however much of a dunce you've been.

 

Your comments here are a little misguided, If I wanted to spend four times the amount on mac training that I would need to for MS/A+ training I would want to have access to more Macs to actually leverage my new knowledge of how to use a screwdriver in the correct Apple way.

 

This was not the issue at all. I assume that you are referring to the melted keyboard statement in my previous posts, which it appeared that I need to elaborate on.

 

They keyboard that I was talking about was on a G4 Mac notebook, owned by an American Educational Technology 'Expert' that came to our school to do a presentation. I had read that these particular laptops had an issue with the software that governed the behavior of the laptop when the screen was closed while the laptop was on. Most laptops would shut off the screen and suspend or at least dissipate the heat properly. In this case the laptop simply kept on plugging along and melted the keyboard that was under the screen.

 

When I saw this persons laptop I knew that this was what had happened as the actual outline of the letters printed on the keys were visible on the LCD itself and the keys were slightly wilted. Apple refused to warranty most of these saying that it was user error.

 

This is the bit that got me about this Educator, after Apple had refused to repair his laptop he was still an avid Mac fan still, recommending the company that could do no wrong. What kind of delusion causes this kind of behavior and makes these people try to spread the pain to others.

 

On a side note, the laptop, running the latest version of Mac OS at the time could not connect to our wireless network due to bad signal and authentication. This caused said professional to question our schools infrastructure that was not compatible with his Mac and therefore set against his superior computer as my hp was sitting there with half signal when his had none. After moving an access point and turning off the encryption we were finally able to associate his melted Mac to our newly mangled wireless network.

[HodgeHi]

I have generally found that the compatibility issue t be the other way around these days.

 

Most Mac hardware can usually connect with each other and allow PCs to do the same (except the ongoing issue with leopard and windows shares).

 

I have had issues with Windows machines not being able to talk to access points. I have replaced the windows machine with mac minis and found the connection first time. I have also managed to create a wifi bridge between 2 buildings and manage the minis across it. I manage them from an Intel Xserve.

 

I found this thread interesting as most of the argument seems to be based on cost. But the one area which seemed to be missing is support cost. How much is your time worth?

 

I am not a massively experienced or even superb admin. I don't like doing certain things (like build and customise application installs to be used through GPO) since i don't really know how to do them.

 

I have since installed mac mini's into the classrooms. I have leopard installed and authenticating to a Tiger server. But the killer for me is management.

 

From one Server i can observe and control both XP and OS X. We have just gone into E-reg in SIMS and so was a god send at reg time. I sat at my machine and observed all 10 machines a the same time whist they did their reg to see if they were coping ok with it.

 

To me this is the best part about our setup. Not the fact that most are macs but the fact that i can now manage them more effectively from my end.

 

I have tried to get a magic triangle set up but ran into a few issues. I am looking forward to trying it again soon. I love a challenge and i can't rest until i have cracked that challenge. It may not be straight away but i will eventually.

 

With regards to the industry and sector that we work in, i found it quite interesting to see that some gave up due to a difficulty that they could not overcome. Now i am not dissing anyone here as i can fully understand that. It's just that removing a complete Hardware/software manf because of this is pretty big deal.

 

What if MS disappeared? What then?

 

Would it be Linux all the way? What about hardware that Linux had not managed to Support. I know Graphics Card drivers were difficult a while back (could have just been me though ;-))?

 

Now i am no way a Guru when it comes to Linux and if you guys are then you should be no where near MS anyway. :-)

 

We are currently being pressured into our LEAs recommended Learning gateway. It is based on MS Share point and requires IE to be used.

 

Now my problem with this is i know that some of our pupils use Macs at home which means that this gateway is useless to us.

 

Why is this important? Because w assume that all pupils work on PCs at home. I work in a Primary School and so the Pupils may not have as much control on what they can use at home. That is down to their parents.

 

we can't be the ones to stand in the way of what people wish to use because of our personal opinions. We should be the ones to promote variety of hardware and OSes and apps within education. I can not wait for the day when it is no longer MS all the way. even if it isn't Xp it's Office. This is why i am supporting OS and promoting it from our website from now on. I have deployed Open Office and Neo Office so parents can use and create docs for use at home without the real need to go out and buy the Educations and teacher version.

 

To me its all about accessibility. Where ever i can help anyway.

[Midget]

having never used a mac in anything other than full superuser mode in work, can you actually lock them down sufficiently for a school situation?