abillybob Posted January 23, 2017 Author Posted January 23, 2017 The vessel is usually in two halves separated by a rubber diaphragm. Red expansion vessels are for hot sealed systems, white and blue are for open systems often with potable water. In OP's system we can see from the picture that the hot water is being done by an immersion heater in the big tank and immediately above the immersion looks like some kind of thermostat (?). So if there is a problem with hot water, it is going to be reactively simple (immersion, thermostat or the controller which switches it on). The switch that goes to the immersion heater is off. We tried and had it turned on permanently for a month which fixed the issue but we got a nice £150 electricity bill after doing that so never again it stays off. The thingy above the immersion heater is a thermostat. I'm presuming that because the immersion switch is off then the hot water must be coming from the flow boiler and then filling up the Tempest Unvented Cylinder with hot water?
woodham Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 totally unrelated but is that white expractor hose venting outside or into the loft? if its inside youll end up with a moldy loft
Homer Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 Interesting it seems that the system that heats the radiators is also heating a coil inside the tank and it isn't purely for heating the house. It could be either the electronic valve on the pipework leading to the cylinder is stuffed OR there is such demand on the heating in the house the water going through the coils isn't getting hot enough to heat the water in the cylinder. You may need to use the immersion to boost the heat through the winter months, not 24/7 but as I said a couple of hours per day. It would cost you 6kw per day for 2 hours, 6x13.5 (average electricity cost) 81p/day - £25/mo I do think you may need to get somebody familiar on these systems in though I'm not familiar with electric heated systems like this... rip it out and put gas in
abillybob Posted January 23, 2017 Author Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) totally unrelated but is that white expractor hose venting outside or into the loft? if its inside youll end up with a moldy loft Outside... Now. This photo was taken before we actually moved in, the builders where a little cow boyish so I've re-done it with a vent out of the roof with insect trappers and replaced the awful ceiling fan they had in the middle to a in-line fan. I also replaced majority of the ducting That was one job taken out of the never ending list of what is wrong with our house!! Interesting it seems that the system that heats the radiators is also heating a coil inside the tank and it isn't purely for heating the house. It could be either the electronic valve on the pipework leading to the cylinder is stuffed OR there is such demand on the heating in the house the water going through the coils isn't getting hot enough to heat the water in the cylinder. You may need to use the immersion to boost the heat through the winter months, not 24/7 but as I said a couple of hours per day. It would cost you 6kw per day for 2 hours, 6x13.5 (average electricity cost) 81p/day - £25/mo I do think you may need to get somebody familiar on these systems in though I'm not familiar with electric heated systems like this... rip it out and put gas in I may try then what @elsiegee40 suggested and having the water on before the heating comes on so the boiler is solely heating the water and doesn't need to heat the house at the same time! I did get my friend to look at it who's a plumber and heating engineer, his words where "Just leave the immersion on" I don't think he took into account how much it would cost us. Even he seemed a little flabbergasted! Edited January 23, 2017 by abillybob
Homer Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 Defo do what elsie suggested, we have gas fired heating at home. At the moment, if the h/w and c/h come on together the h/w will take a looooong time to warm up. We have to put the h/w on for a bit before the c/h to make sure it gets warm. And that's a 10kw boiler!
pcstru Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) The switch that goes to the immersion heater is off. We tried and had it turned on permanently for a month which fixed the issue but we got a nice £150 electricity bill after doing that so never again it stays off. The thingy above the immersion heater is a thermostat. I'm presuming that because the immersion switch is off then the hot water must be coming from the flow boiler and then filling up the Tempest Unvented Cylinder with hot water? It will be as @Homer says a coil inside the cylinder - the heating side of the system is sealed, closed loop. I think the grey/silver box on the pipe with the black wire is an electronic valve which should open up the heating loop into the tank when needed. You sure the noise is coming from the tank not that valve? Given that it is all electric it is a bit bizzare IMO. It is almost certainly more efficient to heat your water with the immersion because there is no loss, whereas the electric unit that is doing your radiators has to heat water and then send it into the tank, losing heat to the (uninsulated!!) pipes and your loft. It might make sense when you have a different fuel on the heating side (logs/oil/gas) but since it's all electric, it seems a bit pointless. Get a timer on the immersion heater. And Lag those pipes! Edited January 23, 2017 by pcstru
mikkydoos Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 Cant beat a combi boler. Think about investing in one maybe 1
Willott Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 Any better today? I was thinking about this last night. I was wondering if the noise was coming from the main pump (the red thing) - it could be air inside the system - the boiler, as has been mentioned, feeds a coil inside the tank which heats the water in the tank. This coil is in the same system as the heating, and I would have thought the electric valve on the floor is what controls if the heated water passes into the tank to heat the tank water. Bleed rads, check for pressure, and the black unit with the red knob at the very top is an auto air release valve, if this is working correctly, it should eliminate air in the system - however, it could also be blocked, or have been left in the service position, in which case it won't be bleeding air. It should have an indicator showing open - closed - this is whether it's in service position or not.
abillybob Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 Seems better this morning, had good hot water at least!! Thankyou all for all your help! I took some more pictures of it which should be more in depth so I hope these help!!
mikkydoos Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 What did u do?...... btw... its a crime to have a guitar stuck in the loft !!
abillybob Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 What did u do?...... btw... its a crime to have a guitar stuck in the loft !! Changed the timer on the heating and the water so they weren't on together! Although this could be another fluke as it's been going hot and cold for a while so tomorrow it may just turn cold again!! Tried to learn for 5 months, got frustrated and stuck it in the loft, I don't have the patience!!! 1
pcstru Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 Changed the timer on the heating and the water so they weren't on together! Although this could be another fluke as it's been going hot and cold for a while so tomorrow it may just turn cold again!! That sounds consistent with the system just not having enough oomph when it is cold. It all looks fairly new so while it could be a fault, it is perhaps less likely. I'll say again, this is a wierd set-up and heating your water using the immersion has to be more efficient. To get that efficiency, it just need to be controlled by a timer. The only advantage to having the wet heating loop into the hot water tank is some redundancy. Actually using it to heat the water will be more expensive than using the immersion for the same amount of hot water.
woodham Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 good job on the vent and glad to hear you have hot water again we are just about to remove our system boiler as with 3 girls in the house there is never enough hot water when we need it so its coming out and a combie going in as it will be cheaper in the longrun , i know what you mean re never ending jobs list my next job is replacing floor joists followed by rewiring the ring main, kitchen and bathroom refit , but then the house is 100 years old , as has already been said Get some pipe lagging on those pipes youll loose lots of heat without it the split foam stuff is cheap enough and dead easy to put on just fasten it with cable ties
abillybob Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 That sounds consistent with the system just not having enough oomph when it is cold. It all looks fairly new so while it could be a fault, it is perhaps less likely. I'll say again, this is a wierd set-up and heating your water using the immersion has to be more efficient. To get that efficiency, it just need to be controlled by a timer. The only advantage to having the wet heating loop into the hot water tank is some redundancy. Actually using it to heat the water will be more expensive than using the immersion for the same amount of hot water. To put the immersion on a timer does that mean I'd have to put a timer switch where the current on/off switch is? good job on the vent and glad to hear you have hot water again we are just about to remove our system boiler as with 3 girls in the house there is never enough hot water when we need it so its coming out and a combie going in as it will be cheaper in the longrun , i know what you mean re never ending jobs list my next job is replacing floor joists followed by rewiring the ring main, kitchen and bathroom refit , but then the house is 100 years old , as has already been said Get some pipe lagging on those pipes youll loose lots of heat without it the split foam stuff is cheap enough and dead easy to put on just fasten it with cable ties Thanking you muchly!! I quite like it when I've finished the job though and it looks good, gives me some satisfaction! After just buying the house we can't afford a combie boiler at the moment but maybe in the future, the plan is at some point to get planning within a few years to convert the loft (It's very spacious) into a master bedroom we'd then probably rip that boiler out and have a combie one just for it's space saving! I'll look into pipe lagging and insulation also thanks!! I've still got to do something about our dodgy skylight windows we've had a proper big problem with them, half tempted to leave them in the loft and remove all the dry wall around them and put up plasterboard for the ceiling, maybe in the future make them into sun tunnels!!
difinity Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 I'm surprised they didn't lag the pipes themselves to hide their awful soldering. The plumber that did that takes very little pride in his work. I'm guessing they went for this all electric system as you're not on a gas main ? I take it you've noted the annual servicing requirement on the immersion heater ?
pcstru Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 To put the immersion on a timer does that mean I'd have to put a timer switch where the current on/off switch is? It would probably be more convenient placed whereever the other heating controls are but it depends on how you use it. I like to be able to switch on my immersion to give the water a quick boost to support my outrageous addiction of soaking in a hot bath for hours. If I didn't do that, I doubt I would touch the timer so being in a loft wouldn't be too much of an issue (depending on how accessible the loft is), but if possible make it accessible (always keep one eye on the impact any work will have if you need to sell the house). After just buying the house we can't afford a combie boiler at the moment but maybe in the future, Do you have access to mains gas? I'm just curious why the builder/plumber opted for the system that you have - perhaps it is just because it is cheap (although they could have made it even cheaper by omitting the wet loop, which seem to be the source of your current woes). the plan is at some point to get planning within a few years to convert the loft (It's very spacious) into a master bedroom we'd then probably rip that boiler out and have a combie one just for it's space saving! Is that the loft pictured? Converting it would seem to mean taking out the supporting A beams to get the space and replacing them with something else. That will be quite expensive (compared to putting up a few partition walls), it is basically a rebuild of the whole roof!
abillybob Posted January 24, 2017 Author Posted January 24, 2017 It would probably be more convenient placed whereever the other heating controls are but it depends on how you use it. I like to be able to switch on my immersion to give the water a quick boost to support my outrageous addiction of soaking in a hot bath for hours. If I didn't do that, I doubt I would touch the timer so being in a loft wouldn't be too much of an issue (depending on how accessible the loft is), but if possible make it accessible (always keep one eye on the impact any work will have if you need to sell the house). Do you have access to mains gas? I'm just curious why the builder/plumber opted for the system that you have - perhaps it is just because it is cheap (although they could have made it even cheaper by omitting the wet loop, which seem to be the source of your current woes). Is that the loft pictured? Converting it would seem to mean taking out the supporting A beams to get the space and replacing them with something else. That will be quite expensive (compared to putting up a few partition walls), it is basically a rebuild of the whole roof! Yeah I would like to do that but wouldn't have a clue how to do it as the other timer is downstairs yet the immersion switch is in the loft so i'd have to install it in the loft. It's pretty accessible though so maybe it's an option. No Mains gas I'm afraid hence why it's all electric. Yeah we know it would be a long and expensive job to do, we have other options but we're talking quite a bit in the future so hopefully by then we'll have the money to do the loft!!
pcstru Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) Yeah I would like to do that but wouldn't have a clue how to do it as the other timer is downstairs yet the immersion switch is in the loft so i'd have to install it in the loft. It's pretty accessible though so maybe it's an option. You may be able to find a wireless timer switch. I fitted a honewell thing for my heating control and it is very good although mine would over-kill for just an immersion, you should be able to find something suitable. No Mains gas I'm afraid hence why it's all electric. Ok, that explains the choice of electric. For a combi you could use bottled gas or oil. Yeah we know it would be a long and expensive job to do, we have other options but we're talking quite a bit in the future so hopefully by then we'll have the money to do the loft!! You may find it is cheaper to move and get a house that fits rather than trying to make that work but there is nothing wrong with dreaming! Edited January 24, 2017 by pcstru Spotted Typo
Homer Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 I don't know how it works for domestic, but in commerical (eg, schools like we're in) pressure vessels must be checked by competent person every year, and in our case inspected by insurance as well. Might apply for domestic, be worth checking. Especially unvented systems, if the prv doesn't work or the pressure vessel is no good it'll be a bomb if a thermostat fails open. Also is that a soil stack in the void?! I hope that is an air admittance valve on it... eeewwwwww
Willott Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 Are your rads heating all the way to the top now as well?
abillybob Posted January 25, 2017 Author Posted January 25, 2017 Are your rads heating all the way to the top now as well? Hot water again this morning SO fingers crossed it's sorted!! Yeah seem to be I haven't touched a top of a radiator and it's been cold yet anyway! Cheers All
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