Library Systems - What others are there?

[Guest MD5T]

Have a look at heritage. It's not too expensive and we host database on VM server.

[ReBoot]

Heritage and Koha look very similar architecture wise. Main difference is Heritage is Windows Server IIS based while Koha is Linux + Apache2 with community support.

 

I'm a big fan of the latter.

[jonspurs]

We're on normal Eclipse (hosted on site). Looked at Eclipse Hosted off-site/cloud, but looking from the management console, it showed there wasn't much use of the library system anyway, so we couldn't justify the costs of going hosted.

[enjay]

We're on normal Eclipse (hosted on site). Looked at Eclipse Hosted off-site/cloud, but looking from the management console, it showed there wasn't much use of the library system anyway, so we couldn't justify the costs of going hosted.

 

That was our view too, with our library system. It could go hosted allowing access from BYOD or home, but students don't check the catalogue anyway, they just look on the shelves or ask the librarians. Emails are sent out about overdue books, so they get that direct notification anyway.

[TwistedHelixis]

Can you imagine the money eclipse would make if they offered the product at a price people could afford, everyone would be using it.

[SteveW]

Can you imagine the money eclipse would make if they offered the product at a price people could afford, everyone would be using it.

 

So true....... But then Capita own them...

[AlanD]

So true....... But then Capita own them...

 

Oh!!!!

 

That explains everything. Thought they had really lost the plot. And turns out - they have. Still pushing out Silverlight version..... with only vague promises of an HTML 5 version. And their cloud hosted solution is So...S...L....O...W.... even with a gigabit link.

 

Googlebye Eclipse....RIP.

[simmotech]

Can you imagine the money eclipse would make if they offered the product at a price people could afford, everyone would be using it.

Serious question: How much would a school be prepared to pay monthly for, say, the following:-

• A non-hosted solution - runs on SQL Server Express on a workstation on the School LAN (you have control of your data at all times);
  
• Properly designed database (ie not the dreadful text-based tosh used by Junior Librarian - properly related tables and lookups so that variations of spelling, punctuation, style, duplicates etc. are eliminated);
  
• Support only via email/forum (although, once finished I don't see many support issues - it will 'just work', be fast and be a pleasure for the librarian to use and maintain);
  
• Data import/export that works (Junior Librarian produces corrupt Marc files and even corrupt CSV files - unbelievable!);
  
• Very fast grid-based filtering/sorting (none of that paging rubbish that crashes if you scroll too fast);
  
• Excellent database maintenance. Each Title/Author/Publisher etc. is represented in the database once and only once. Where duplicates have been entered by mistake, there will be an option to merge them;
  
• Full barcode scanner integration. Rather than just use it as a keyboard which will overwrite whatever text field you are currently in, input from a barcode scanner will be more intelligent. e.g. you will be able to scan a returned book no matter what other task you are doing at the time.
  

 

My wife is a librarian at a number of schools in our area and is super-pi**ed at MLS for so many reasons. She has been hassling me for a long time to write some librarian software for her schools and she showed me how bad a hosted Junior Librarian is.

Well I now have the time to do that and have made a start. My aim is to write a .NET based app that initially will do everything Junior Librarian can do but much, much better.

 

I am looking for any ideas, suggestions etc. No matter how big or small they will all be considered.

In the first instance, I am looking for an idea of how many resources your library maintains; and how important (or not) the cartoon style graphics are.

[ReadTheNetwork]

I was thinking something similar, but for cashless canteen systems.

Have you thought about an integrated cashless and registration system to go with your library system? You might get more customs

 

Unfortunately, our school has to keep it as cheap as possible. Not a lot of budget at all. But starting with the library system, you can expend it to other projects too. For instance, auto user creation based from reports the MIS the school is using (Bromcom, SIMS, etc).

[simmotech]

An integrated cashless and registration system is outside my scope unfortunately but auto-user creation will be included (wife's orders!).

 

I notice that even in this thread alone there are a number of comments about how difficult it is to add the new intake.

Why is that? Don't SIMS and Bromcom allow export of data in say CSV or XML format? Or even API access?

The fact is that if the data is available, I can import it.

 

Unfortunately, our school has to keep it as cheap as possible. Not a lot of budget at all.

I understand about limited school budgets but I need to make a living - go on, post an actual monthly figure your budget could support and you would be happy to pay for a piece of software you are 100% happy with.

Edited October 23, 2017 by simmotech

[enjay]

Yes to both CSV and XML export from SIMS. Our library system automates the creation and deletion of users based on a daily export from SIMS via Groupcall Xporter. This makes adding the process totally hands-off for both IT and Librarian. At the bare minimum, I would expect the system to allow me to import a CSV file, but obviously the automation is a nice addition.

 

Does your system include student photos? If not, I would advise you add it, as it means the librarians can still verify identify and issue books without the students needing to have library cards.

 

Another feature you're going to need to include in your system is the ability to look up details, including cover image, by scanning the items' barcodes, so all the librarian needs to do when cataloguing new items is scan the barcode and let the system do the rest. This would need to work for books, CDs and DVDs.

 

For our librarians, these three are all must-have features.

[simmotech]

Yes to both CSV and XML export from SIMS.

Do these include binary data for Images?

 

Does your system include student photos?

It will do. Either directly by import from SIMS et al or via a WebCam or both.

 

need to include in your system is the ability to look up details, including cover image,

It will do but....

I know MLS pay a third party for some of this. My app almost certainly won't be able to do that due to keeping costs down.

Google Books is an option but they don't allow many requests in a short space of time for the purposes of populating a database (I already tried out their API and they told me off!)

Plus the Google Books API is experimental at the moment and may become chargeable.

Other public free services are available but they can come and go; British Library is another maybe.

 

I think for the first version, I will take the time to write a common import screen and one adapter for each major source so that each source is queried and the Librarian can then pick and choose which is the 'correct' or 'best' information.

 

However, regardless of how the common data is obtained, there is still an issue of consistency - something I feel strongly about.

For example, "Living in", "Living In", "Living In A", "Living in A", "Living in the Past", "Living in...", "Living In... S." are all Series Names from a single JL database.

There are lots of other also with a "S." suffix and my wife tells me that the first data entered for a previously unseen ISBN is then used by MLS Discovery (I think its called) for use in all subsequent usages.

I don't want that rubbish in a database system I write.

There is also the issue with Names - Authors, publishers etc. You wouldn't believe the variations in spellings I have seen which means duplicates and inconsistency.

The first version will have support to allow the Librarian to select multiple Authors, say, and Merge them into one.

 

In the longer term, I would like to maintain a central database which would map an ISBN to a set of data that has been maintained and/or checked before it is used a source.

Eventually, it would become a primary source for two things:-

1) Basic information fact such as title, author, cover image etc.

2) A source for more subjective information such as Keywords, Genre etc. This would be used as a standard source for more consistent descriptions. My wife definitely needs this for her multiple schools but it would also be useful for schools without the resource to implement a scheme of their own.

 

This would also allow me to maintain a list of Well-Known items - e.g. "JK Rowling" or "Double Day Publishing". Each would have its own GUID and would allow school libraries to import data from this source more consistently.

(this isn't pie-in-sky thinking BTW, I already use this technique in my other software, a back-end office system for IFAs, to identify thousands of Funds)

[enjay]

I appreciate the complexity of delivering a decent lookup system, but you must bear in mind your competitors are offering this and it is a massive time-saving for the librarians, so there is no way they would consider moving to a system which doesn't offer it.

 

I believe our system has a catalogue of catalogues (!) and the Librarians have selected which ones they want to use for a lookup, with a preferred one specified (British Library perhaps?) and it moving on to others if it can't find the title in the first one.

[simmotech]

...there is no way they would consider moving to a system which doesn't offer it.

My previous message said it definitely will include that feature.

[enjay]

"I will do but...." implies to me the functionality may be flawed. Also, you mention one costed option which you won't be using and cite a problem/cost with another well-known product. Maybe I'm being cynical, but that could suggest you already know your search won't be as good as theirs, and you're giving the reasons for this.

[Steve21]

This is the problem with all these systems, it starts off "quick and easy" add on a bunch of features, like we wouldn't consider a CSV import for a new system they're bad enough as it is in old systems, and suddenly you get to an overpriced over complicated program with all the bells and whistles at a price

 

Steve

[simmotech]

"I will do but...." implies to me the functionality may be flawed. Also, you mention one costed option which you won't be using and cite a problem/cost with another well-known product. Maybe I'm being cynical, but that could suggest you already know your search won't be as good as theirs, and you're giving the reasons for this.

You are being very cynical

 

When I said "It will do", I meant "that feature will definitely be included".

When I said "but...", I meant "it isn't as straightforward to implement as it sounds" and I gave some reasons.

The functionality isn't flawed solely because it hasn't been written yet!

This is a completely new piece of software that I started literally two weeks ago. I was just talking out loud about some of the possible ways I will go for that particular feature.

 

I am in this forum to get a feel for what schools want, what they don't want, problems they have come across etc. etc.

 

 

you already know your search won't be as good as theirs

Do you mean the Junior Librarian one?

The one that uses text from the first entered record?

The one that has a Community Dashboard with "," as 3rd in the Top 100 Authors Catalogued? (I kid you not...)

 

A costed option is not out of the question, but it would have to be reflected in the price so it is worthwhile investigating other options too.

 

Please be assured that when you scan a new ISBN, the Resource fields will be populated.

[simmotech]

This is the problem with all these systems, it starts off "quick and easy" add on a bunch of features, like we wouldn't consider a CSV import for a new system they're bad enough as it is in old systems, and suddenly you get to an overpriced over complicated program with all the bells and whistles at a price

CSV is just one option which is straightforward to use if it includes all the required information.

You export a CSV from SIMS or whatever, and get the app to read it and pull data from the columns as required.

 

If SIMS (or whatever) has an API where I can pass in a School Identifier and Password and then ask for details of the new intake, then I will happily write code to do that.

 

My wife just showed me the costs for MLS Connect ('Links with school administration system to automatically update from enrolment records') for the school she was at today.

£195 then £75/year thereafter! Is that the type of thing you meant by "bells and whistles at a price"?

 

Here is the bottom line:

The software I write will have a single monthly cost. There will be no 'add-on features' with extra charges - all new features will be available for all users and included in that single monthly cost.

The single monthly cost will also not suddenly be doubled or anything like that. I envisage raising by no more than inflation and even then only by, say, full pound increments every couple of years.

There will be no tie-ins. Customers will be free to stop using the software whenever they like and I also guarantee not to hold customers to ransom over their data should they wish to move it elsewhere.

It is stored on a school's SQL server database anyway and so is fully accessible to them but I will also commit to writing an Export facility.

 

I am not looking to become a millionaire through this software.

I want to write something that schools and librarians will actually want to use and will be happy to pay the monthly cost.

(Plus I also want to take away business from Junior Librarian as a bonus if I am being honest)

 

I will suggest that £30-£35/month is the target price - does that sound reasonable? (I'm not asking for a commitment BTW - only an opinion )

[Steve21]

So you're expecting £400~ a year for it with no updates/support, that isn't going to be linked to any MIS, isn't going to be linked to any of the paid-for (I use paid-for as a replacement for "decent" library lookups), needs hosting locally by the schools and the main driving point in buying into it sounds like "it isn't MLS"

 

It just really sounds like you're missing the point why so many schools buy into these systems, they just want it to work without making them do all the extras you're talking about. If they were just looking at cost saving they'd use the free open source ones. End of day I can guarantee you no school will care how pretty the backend database is etc if it's not going to do what they want

 

I'd second enjay's comment above that your "it will but..." isn't exactly going to be a comparison then to the "better than MLS" system. If you're saying that using a paid for lookup is going to put your cost above theirs then that's a problem in comparison terms, If you're telling us your own version is going to be better and free (in terms of the "extra costs") that's a bit different

 

You have to remember that cost saving is balanced against time being spent managing a system here.

 

Steve

[mikeprice]

We paid about £3-400 for a system that does everything we need - does searches - including seaches based on classes etc - links to remote places to get data -

 

just works - but no fancy cloud stuff or remote access for parents etc

 

but cost less that £400 - flat

 

if it all gets complex - I can use Access to do anything

 

but the only thing I have needed this for is updating the classes in September (it is a normal library system - not specifically for school)

 

difficult to compete with that!

[simmotech]

So you're expecting £400~ a year for it with no updates/support, that isn't going to be linked to any MIS, isn't going to be linked to any of the paid-for (I use paid-for as a replacement for "decent" library lookups), needs hosting locally by the schools and the main driving point in buying into it sounds like "it isn't MLS"

 

Where do you get "no updates/support" from?

I said previously that support would be via email/forums - just not telephone.

Updates will be at regular intervals as new features are added.

 

Where do you get "isn't going to be linked to any MIS" from?

I said that if SIMS had an API to use I would write code to use it. Same for any other MIS.

I also said that CSV files would be another way to import student data.

What I am writing however is a library system, and not an add-on to MIS system.

 

"Needs hosting locally by the schools"

Hosting locally is a good thing. Hosted MLS is truly dreadful.

 

"it isn't MLS"

It certainly isn't.

 

"they just want it to work without making them do all the extras you're talking about"

What extras? I really don't know what you are talking about.

 

"If you're telling us your own version is going to be better and free (in terms of the "extra costs") that's a bit different"

What exactly is your idea of a "decent library" lookup - paid or otherwise?

 

All I have really seen is the Junior Librarian one.

It seems to get a Title, the name of the Author (in Surname, Forename string format) and a Summary and, sometimes, an image of the front cover.

Now the Title and Summary are great and so is the image when included.

But the Author being a string *is* a problem.

If one book uses "Rowling, J. K." but another uses "rowling,jk" then they are not treated the same but become, in effect, two different authors.

So once you start importing that way your Searching is then severely compromised.

 

So even the "paid for" lookups are not the final solution - you still have to do manual library maintenance.

 

I reckon I can get Title, Summary, Image, Author text etc. lookup without paying another company to do it.

If I can't then I'll revisit the "paid for" option. But lookups will be included and be as good as any others.

 

My software will also have the ability to merge these duplicates into one - something that MLS, being text-based, doesn't support.

So in that respect, it will be better than MLS.

[enjay]

Hosted locally is not always a good thing - web hosting means less work for IT teams (especially when replacing the servers) and would allow students to check the catalogue, reserve and renew books from their phones (we use BYOD) and from home.

 

As for the search question, no I didn't mean "like Junior Librarian" because we don't use that. We use a system where you catalogue a book by scanning the barcode, giving the data a quick parse then clicking Save. That is what I meant.

 

Looking at SIMS, there is no API for SIMS, but you can create customised reports. So, you would tell your customers what fields you need in the export (including column heading and/or column order) and they could create a report which produces a CSV which they would then upload. Report templates can be exported/imported, so a nice bit of customer service would be to create the report yourself (you'll need someone with SIMS to do this for you) and then share that with your customers. Groupcall Xporter would allow IT to automate the process of running that report and uploading the CSV (again, some schools will want help with that, so get someone to write the Xporter job for you).

 

Remember with the user import, you also need to include a simple-to-use delete too - just like how 200+ students join in September, so too do 200+ students leave in July - you'd be surprised how many educational systems seem to forget about bulk removing users!

 

Since others are talking price, we pay £500 per year for this, locally hosted. Web hosting is the same amount again I think.

 

From a marketing viewpoint, be careful with your "it isn't Junior Librarian" mantra. Personally, I get put off by sales people who focus on rubbishing the competition, but also I don't know Junior Librarian so have no frames of reference for your selling points. Focus instead on what your system does, not what one of your competitors doesn't.

[bennz]

i bet you could get this built before @MLS respond to a support ticket raised on 1st of October.

[simmotech]

Thanks for that info enjay.

 

I take your point about web hosting but that isn't something I know much about or want to get into. Microsoft SQL Server on Azure on the other hand could be a possible solution in the future.

 

SIMS: I had assumed that the default Reports would provide most of the information but I would be more than happy to design a custom report.

The biggest problem I guess is the Photo - if that was included in a report, would it produce binary in any data export - can't see it somehow.

So how does MLS get data directly from SIMS? Aren't they both owned by Capita? Hmmm.

On the other hand I will investigate Groupcall Xporter.

 

User Import: I envision this as a special task with a single dialogue box allowing Admins to Add the new intake, shuffle all existing groups to their new year group and remove leavers all in one go.

 

Cataloging a book: I agree with your description more or less but with two scans - one for the Barcode accession/call number and another for the ISBN. Then a prepopulation of data and a Save.

However, does your source also add Genre, Keywords, Subjects etc.?

 

Fair point on the Junior Librarian bashing - I will cut that down.

What system do you use if you don't mind me asking? I'm all ears for better ways of doing things.

[ReadTheNetwork]

I take your point about web hosting but that isn't something I know much about or want to get into. Microsoft SQL Server on Azure on the other hand could be a possible solution in the future.

 

I'd go down the web hosting route for library systems. Our school is becoming an academy so it'll be nice to see what resources are in the other schools within our MAT.