psydii Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 Broc I'm sure "they" have done a thorough study that show the TCO is lower if they do it the way they want to. You just cited an example of decentralising a Managed Service increased TCO. While I understand your point, the example when taken out of context appears to argue for centralised Managed Services. MK-2: In a large school not everyone is 10 seconds from the physical helpdesk. Most of our requests come via email, some by phone, some by radio and others by pupil post. Does it matter that much if the 'desk' itself is not actually on site? Regarding the scenario - how do we deal with having to be in two places at once now? Don't forget that all server/systems maintenance and management is done remotely, as is anything remotely complicated that doesn't require hands-on interaction. If my team didn't have to look after the servers (hard/software) or do funky sql on the management dbs, or integrate the latest and greatest application with our Group Policy/LDAP/Webserver, or project manage, we'd be laughing in terms of how fast we could knock off jobs from our in house helpdesk. Actually with three of us, 2/3's could be in the pub at any given time and our users would still love us.
broc Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 Psydii I agree with you the example I gave favoured a centralised service; the point I was making is that you need to look beyond the 'obvious' when looking at TCO. Looking at the ICT cost alone does not reflect the true TCO. As it happens I do not believe for one minute a full TCO case has been prepared for any school, any more than I believe a sound business case was developed to prove a managed service was cost effective for schools. If either of these has been prepared, Partnership for Schools is remarkably reluctant to share them with anyone. The whole BSF program is being driven by the same political dogma that is driving Academies, this time aided and abetted by private companies out to make a profit delivering managed services. In my other role (until fairly recently) as a Chair of Governors at a Secondary School I was asked to sign up to a BSF managed ICT service 'in principle' without being given any indication of cost to my school; We were not told what the service would deliver, how much it would cost, and if the school would have any option of withdrawing if it did not believe the Managed Service was delivering best value. If the financial case had been available surely it would have been used to convince our governing body instead of employing bullying tactics? Few if any Head Teachers I have spoken to want managed ICT services; most are happy with what they have now. They are being persuaded by the offer of substantial capital investment with strings attached. At my school we don't need to do funky SQL on our MIS system, or spend that much time maintaining our servers, they pretty much run themselves. We do spend a lot of time supporting our end-users 'hands-on' and my school will certainly suffer if the local support team is reduced, especially as we will see an increase from 500 to 1000+ end-user devices across the school as a result of BSF.
GrumbleDook Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 Does anyone mind if I troll a bit before running away? Yes? Oh well ... I'll just leave a short comment then. We keep talking about what happens when things go wrong ... who said things will go wrong? I'll get my coat ... it is the asbestos one.
beeswax Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 They may not go wrong, but they might not be quite right either.
webman Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 We keep talking about what happens when things go wrong ... who said things will go wrong? From the information we have, and past cases where IT and government are involved on any level; something is bound to go wrong, it's virtually guaranteed between the lines of each agreement. Let's turn this around again, and ask, "how can it possibly work?"
Grommit Posted February 7, 2008 Author Posted February 7, 2008 psydii TCO means including the teachers time too...... How much teaching time will be lost dealing with the helpdesk as they talk them through a screen driven PD process? Will the teacher simply call for a classroom assistant to help instead? These 'costs' may not show up on the managed service bottom line but they are real costs to the school. Your scenario described to MK-2 is fine, until there are 3-4 or more similar urgent requests queued for the only technician on site. Even 15 minutes downtime is 25% lesson wasted....... I once worked in a commercial environment where they decided to switch from centralised printing to distributed to save print operator costs. They saved the print operator costs, but it cost 3-4 times more for increased network support staff, and the end users (many of whom were highly paid professionals) had to waste time sorting out their own printout from other people. That is why TCO is so important. We have just been told that there is a push for Teaching Assistants to go on new "Basic ICT Support" courses and these are being funded by the government... They will be taught on Printers, Printer Jams, how to set up PC, basic PC trouble shooting and basic IWB trouble shooting..
broc Posted February 8, 2008 Posted February 8, 2008 If you search for news regarding BSF, the number of news items demonstrating success are overwhelmed by the number of news items that show the BSF program is in trouble.... Deadlines not being met Program cutbacks Funding shortfalls To name but a few. Of course I realise we should not always believe what the press say
broc Posted February 8, 2008 Posted February 8, 2008 We have just been told that there is a push for Teaching Assistants to go on new "Basic ICT Support" courses and these are being funded by the government... They will be taught on Printers, Printer Jams, how to set up PC, basic PC trouble shooting and basic IWB trouble shooting.. I am not surprised. We were asked if the school would be prepared to consider employing more people directly to cover any potential shortfall in the level of onsite ICT support provided by the Managed Service Provider.
psydii Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 Does anyone mind if I troll a bit before running away? Yes? Oh well ... I'll just leave a short comment then. We keep talking about what happens when things go wrong ... who said things will go wrong? I'll get my coat ... it is the asbestos one. I do; because they are.
GrumbleDook Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 I know they go wrong ... it was said tongue in cheek. Nicholas and I have exchange emails about what has been going wrong and teh problems they are still having. In some scenarios it could almost be said that the only positive thing that could be said is that there are plenty of mistakes to learn from when it comes to communication ... but I have to hold my hand up and say that it is not always the fault of the contractor ... it is the LA. And I have been saying that a fair bit that LAs need to have better Communication and make sure they communicate to *everyone* who is affected. That said, poor LA communication is not just the realm of BSF though. Some are better than others too.
psydii Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 (edited) I know how you meant it! It's just the opportunity presented itself to publicly observe that things can fall apart no matter what the directors say. We really need to be finding better things to be doing on a Friday night than posting here. I expect Nick is several pints worse for wear now. Edited May 30, 2008 by psydii
GrumbleDook Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 If he has any sense ... I am just recovering from driving back from Lancs. M6 at any time on a friday is not nice.
cookie_monster Posted August 19, 2008 Posted August 19, 2008 When they break them the technician will be able to swap the broken one for a spare and send off the old one for repair. 'When' yeh that's the right word i have a feeling that the tech will become a packaging expert. Sorry to resurrect there but it made me chuckle
GrumbleDook Posted August 19, 2008 Posted August 19, 2008 I have a few days left of free speaking on this ... Replacing broken with spares and sending off (or putting to one side for on-site) repair is common practice even before you look at BSF. It just gives some staff more time to do the interesting things in schools ... like working out what will fail next or coming up with solutions before teachers realise they need them.
cookie_monster Posted August 19, 2008 Posted August 19, 2008 I was really refering to all students having a hand held device, i just can't see them lasting very long.
GrumbleDook Posted August 19, 2008 Posted August 19, 2008 Right now, they won't ... they are seen as incidental devices by the students unless a serious sense of ownership is instilled into them, either by charging the families for damages (risk of losing the engagement of families) or by removing abusive students from the scheme (again, a risk of losing engagement of parents as well as a challenge against the school due not failing to provide an equal curriculum!) Get them to provide their own machines, that way they *have* to look after them!
Grommit Posted August 20, 2008 Author Posted August 20, 2008 Right now, they won't ... they are seen as incidental devices by the students unless a serious sense of ownership is instilled into them, either by charging the families for damages (risk of losing the engagement of families) or by removing abusive students from the scheme (again, a risk of losing engagement of parents as well as a challenge against the school due not failing to provide an equal curriculum!) Get them to provide their own machines, that way they *have* to look after them! Yes 80% of our returned CFP Laptops are damaged .. a couple beyond repair... yet the students don't give a monkeys
cookie_monster Posted August 20, 2008 Posted August 20, 2008 removing abusive students from the scheme Really can't see that happening, 'some' parents won't pay and students will not be allowed to be excluded from learning. I don't like the idea of them providing their own as allot can't afford it so there will be some form if credit scheme (get em started early ;-)) and again what happens when it breaks and they can't replace it are they excluded again? (I'm just playing devils advocate)
CyberNerd Posted August 20, 2008 Posted August 20, 2008 Get them to provide their own machines, that way they *have* to look after them! Get them to pay for their own education, they might learn more. /tongue in cheek
6Foot2 Posted August 20, 2008 Posted August 20, 2008 Talking of users providing their own machines... http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/00000/0000/700/746/746.strip.print.gif
trogers Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 We have just been told that there is a push for Teaching Assistants to go on new "Basic ICT Support" courses and these are being funded by the government... They will be taught on Printers, Printer Jams, how to set up PC, basic PC trouble shooting and basic IWB trouble shooting.. Who told you that?
Grommit Posted October 19, 2008 Author Posted October 19, 2008 Who told you that? The County... they send letters around offering to fund courses for TA's to be taght low level ICT support..
CyberNerd Posted October 19, 2008 Posted October 19, 2008 I don't think the TA training is entirely BSF related. I'm pretty sure I heard that advice elsewhere, probably becta and unrelated to BSF. I does make sense that (IT based TA's) are given basic troubleshooting/maintenance skills, previously teachers did it, but it's the teacher unions that opposed teachers doing any admin based work.
Grommit Posted October 19, 2008 Author Posted October 19, 2008 I don't think the TA training is entirely BSF related. I'm pretty sure I heard that advice elsewhere, probably becta and unrelated to BSF. I does make sense that (IT based TA's) are given basic troubleshooting/maintenance skills, previously teachers did it, but it's the teacher unions that opposed teachers doing any admin based work. So how will they cope under the BSF Managed Service where they have to contact the help desk and go through some basic IT support ?
GrumbleDook Posted October 19, 2008 Posted October 19, 2008 It is also worth pointing out that this sort of training is aimed at TAs / LSAs ... not HLTAs as these may have a teaching commitment and are often viewed by the unions as teachers (when it suits the unions ... damn .. being cynical again!) The idea was aimed at teachers first to make them more IT intelligent, but has now filtered down. This has been round for years (Pre-NOF) but workforce remodelling has shifted things around. It is also worth pointing out that this training is expected to be taken up by *Primary* TAs as there is often a gap in support provided and until schools are forced to switch on to dealing with supporting their ICT/IT then a stop gap is needed. Strange really that this actually puts the skills into the school that BSF can remove ... meaning that the school still needs in house skills for support over and above what is being provided by BSF. Hold on ... doesn't this mean that people's jobs are being moved around without consultation? Perhaps someone needs to chat with their union about this. Or perhaps it is a chance for people to ask questions about where IT is in the vision of their school before they even get into BSF or any form of outsourced support. Then again ... how many members have run internal training for those supporting teachers on basic fault finding and fault resolution as a way of leaving them free to get on with the more difficult issues. I would be interested in seeing how many schools have done things internally already.
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