PiqueABoo Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 http://publications.becta.org.uk/download.cfm?resID=35275 More obvious advice: "We advise that upgrading existing ICT systems to Vista is not recommended" "We believe that Vista can be considered where new institution-wide ICT provision is being planned" [docx format is currently a pain etc.]
Grommit Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) http://publications.becta.org.uk/download.cfm?resID=35275 More obvious advice: "We advise that upgrading existing ICT systems to Vista is not recommended" "We believe that Vista can be considered where new institution-wide ICT provision is being planned" [docx format is currently a pain etc.] Pity EVERY SINGLE stand at BETT is using Vista (apart from apple).... talk about mixed messages Edited January 11, 2008 by Grommit
PiqueABoo Posted January 11, 2008 Author Posted January 11, 2008 talk about mixed messages The only message there is the vendor's "We're up to date and cutting edge, oh yes indeedy, now please give us all your money". If people are daft enough to take that as a recommendation on what to do to their networks then.... Were there any server 2K8'S to be found (RTM build is apparently just a month away)?
tech_guy Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 I saw quite a few exhibitors at Bett yesterday running good old xp. And Apple didn't like it because I lingered a bit too long on their stand wearing my ubuntu sweatshirt whilst they were having photos taken.... :-) 1
Pete10141748 Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Maybe its just me, but parts of that report from Becta seem to be contradictive There may be advantages to schools running multiple operating systems such as Windows, Linux and Mac... ..schools should exorcise thier downgrade rights and stick to Windows XP for a coherent ICT network BOTH of those phrases are from the same paragraph in the report! Myself and the techician here have been using Vista on our laptop here now for about 2 months, and aside from ironing out a couple of creases at the start + 3 of the schools programs not working on it (they are old prog's though), I'm really happy with using it. Plus Office 2007 is a really good upgrade too. I've definately decided that I'm going to slowly introduce them both to the school (getting it whenever we replace a PC or laptop), starting with replacing the 5-year-old PCs in the staffroom; that way the staff are free to have a play with Vista / Office 07 if they want to, in preperation for getting it themselves when thier own equipment is up for being replaced. Pete
Geoff Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 I'm not putting Vista anywhere until I have W2k8 servers to support it properly.
Michael Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 I read about this last night here To be honest some of Becta's comments are inaccurate, in the example of the Microsoft Office 2007. Sure, by default documents are saved in *.docx, but can still be saved in *.doc and secondly, they're obviously never heard of the Microsoft Compatibility Pack which is free. What they also have to realise, schools get absolutely massive discounts on Microsoft software as it is. Until recently one school I work at were using Office XP and Sims.NET, however to export reports in Office you need Office 2003 or later. Buying licenses now are all going to be for the 2007 versions of Office and to be honest, other than learning the new GUI there is no difference. As for Windows Vista, there is no real way of getting away from it. The advice I have given schools is stick with XP and we'll review Vista in 2009, by which time it will of matured, applications will of been re-written/updated and computer hardware will be more capable of running the OS. I think Becta are being a little bit patronising to schools these days. All schools have computer networks of some kind and often have a permanent IT specialist or can at least buy someone in and advise them of best practices.
webman Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Apple didn't like it because I lingered a bit too long on their stand wearing my ubuntu sweatshirt whilst they were having photos taken.... I think I'll wear mine too... though it's a toss between Tux top or Ubuntu top...
Edu-IT Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 I think I'll wear mine too... though it's a toss between Tux top or Ubuntu top... Take both and visit the stand more than once.
enjay Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 @Pete10141748 - while those two statements are somewhat contradictory, they're also both correct in some ways. How I read that bit was Becta saying not to run a mixed-Windows environment but that a Windows-and-Mac environment was okay since profiles and user settings are handled differently. You could have all sorts of fun with roaming profiles on a mixed XP/Vista network - just like we've seen with multiple Office versions - but these problems wouldn't exist with a mix of Vista and Mac since they work in completely different ways.
localzuk Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 I read about this last night here To be honest some of Becta's comments are inaccurate, in the example of the Microsoft Office 2007. Sure, by default documents are saved in *.docx, but can still be saved in *.doc and secondly, they're obviously never heard of the Microsoft Compatibility Pack which is free. That is besides the point. The point is that by continuing to have to use the Office package, and upgrading to the new version, there will therefore be a need to have other stakeholders in the school to buy Office 2007 too. The point of updating a document format (ie, going from .doc to .docx) is to allow for new features. If those new features aren't available via the compatibility pack (which not all of them are) and implementing the new format is complex and difficult for competing software companies/organisations (such as openoffice) then it is in essence forcing people into that purchase. What they also have to realise, schools get absolutely massive discounts on Microsoft software as it is. Until recently one school I work at were using Office XP and Sims.NET, however to export reports in Office you need Office 2003 or later. Buying licenses now are all going to be for the 2007 versions of Office and to be honest, other than learning the new GUI there is no difference. We spend £4000 a year or more on microsoft licensing. That money could very well be spent on other things! It is all well and good saying 'massive discounts' but it still adds up. Add in the major interface change and you have yourself a costly upgrade. Major changes of interface require many hours of retraining or time spent 'playing' to learn the new intricacies of the system. Going from Office 2003 to 2007 will be as difficult as going from DOS to Windows was for many people. As for Windows Vista, there is no real way of getting away from it. The advice I have given schools is stick with XP and we'll review Vista in 2009, by which time it will of matured, applications will of been re-written/updated and computer hardware will be more capable of running the OS. There is a way of getting away from it! The way would be to consider an open source client system or OS X. Then any packages such as SIMS.net can be hosted on a terminal server (either 2003 with something like 2X application server or 2008 when it comes out). The change will be major, but only as major as going to vista and office 2007... I think Becta are being a little bit patronising to schools these days. All schools have computer networks of some kind and often have a permanent IT specialist or can at least buy someone in and advise them of best practices. No, Becta are not being patronising. They are doing their job - which is to advise schools about ICT. The purpose of this report is to try and help schools avoid potential problems and major costs. It also is key to pushing for an open document format within the office software world. Finally, many schools *do not* have permanent IT specialists. There are roughly 32000 schools in the UK (last number I read anyway) of which 4000 are high schools. Not many of those 28000 primary schools will have a permanent ICT technician! They simply don't have the money for that. That is who Becta are try to help - those who don't have people on site to help them.
greenfieldsupport Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 The office compatibility pack wont work on anything pre office XP we found today... luckily that doesnt effect the majority of our machines.. Can i ask what most people are running, were mainly office XP here, cept office 2k3 for all the staff laptops only because we have to be for SIMS ;\
localzuk Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 We are standardised, except for me, on Office 2k3. I use Office 2k7 to see how good or bad it is.
PEO Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 office 2k7 been standardised in the next week here
openhgs Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Tit for tat, Microsoft don't like BECTA either http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39292043,00.htm
Gatt Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Upset Microsoft at BETT yesterday after telling them what I thought about Vista.. Nice for home users.. cr*p for business/education users Lots of compatability problems, locking it down in Group Policy (waiting for Server 2008 when i'll re-eval this), cost of upgrading - in terms of hardware - and schools generally have less than a shoe-string budget for this..
CyberNerd Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 To be honest some of Becta's comments are inaccurate, in the example of the Microsoft Office 2007. Sure, by default documents are saved in *.docx, but can still be saved in *.doc and secondly, they're obviously never heard of the Microsoft Compatibility Pack which is free. The point is that neither .doc or MOOXML meet the industry standard specification (ODF) that BECTA (and several other countries) have already agreed upon. Nearly every other office product in existence complies with BECTA's requirements, except MS office who are attempting to further lock schools into their upgrade cycle by introducing another format (that even office 2007 doesn't comply with). If you run any version of office, the very least you should do is install the ODF compatibility pack. http://www.sun.com/software/star/odf_plugin/whats_new.jsp#odfplugin1.1
Michael Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 @localzuk - The reason the school upgraded from Office XP to Office 2007 was Capita's fault. Sims.NET will not export data to anything below Office 2003. The compatibility pack has worked absolutely fine on Office XP until the school roll out Office 2007 everywhere sometime in the near future. It also fits in with Microsoft life-cycle policies, so we skipped Office 2003 and went directly to 2007. Going from Office 2000/XP/2003 to 2007 there is a learning curve (I am not denying that), but a lot of the tools/features are the same. Office 2007's successor will continue to build on the new interface, just as Microsoft have done since Office '95 to Office 2003. If you strategically plan to upgrade products and implement training then you're going to minimise problems. If you do one and not the other, of course you're going to have problems. Open source could be a consideration, however most users are happy with XP. They use it at work and at home. I don't know any staff user who uses Linux at home (for example). You could debate moving from XP to an open source solution could also be painful for the end user. Using an open source solution with Terminal Services, just to avoid upgrading to Vista at some point in the future? We'll have to disagree on that one. At some point you'll upgrade computer hardware and 99% probability, it'll come with Windows Vista. Have you ever thought why isn't Linux installed on PC's just as Microsoft Windows is? Well Becta aren't really very influential are they? Any school without an IT specialist can and do hire consultants who advise them accordingly. I've never come across any school who have said "oh but Becta have said this". Becta literally touch the surface. Any school want answers and solutions to a whole range of issues that Becta do not address. @greenfieldsupport - The compatibility pack does work on Office 2000 SP3 or later.
webman Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Have you ever thought why isn't Linux installed on PC's just as Microsoft Windows is? Monopoly, OEM agreements ... 1
localzuk Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 @localzuk - The reason the school upgraded from Office XP to Office 2007 was Capita's fault. Sims.NET will not export data to anything below Office 2003. The compatibility pack has worked absolutely fine on Office XP until the school roll out Office 2007 everywhere sometime in the near future. It also fits in with Microsoft life-cycle policies, so we skipped Office 2003 and went directly to 2007. Going from Office 2000/XP/2003 to 2007 there is a learning curve (I am not denying that), but a lot of the tools/features are the same. Office 2007's successor will continue to build on the new interface, just as Microsoft have done since Office '95 to Office 2003. If you strategically plan to upgrade products and implement training then you're going to minimise problems. If you do one and not the other, of course you're going to have problems. The time spent on ICT training is minimal in most schools due to the fact there is so much else to do. So if considerable retraining is required, it may as well include a cost saving somewhere else - such as in software licensing. Open source could be a consideration, however most users are happy with XP. They use it at work and at home. I don't know any staff user who uses Linux at home (for example). You could debate moving from XP to an open source solution could also be painful for the end user. Using an open source solution with Terminal Services, just to avoid upgrading to Vista at some point in the future? We'll have to disagree on that one. At some point you'll upgrade computer hardware and 99% probability, it'll come with Windows Vista. Have you ever thought why isn't Linux installed on PC's just as Microsoft Windows is? First, Linux and FreeDos are an option with many HP workstations and now some Dell stations too. So they wouldn't have a windows license. It is an increasing trend as more and more people realise how much money Microsoft is actually costing them. Second, spending £4 - 5k a year on licenses just because staff use XP at home is silly - we provide all our teachers with their own laptop. There is no reason for them to be using their own machines here. Well Becta aren't really very influential are they? Any school without an IT specialist can and do hire consultants who advise them accordingly. I've never come across any school who have said "oh but Becta have said this". Becta literally touch the surface. Any school want answers and solutions to a whole range of issues that Becta do not address. Well yes, Becta are influential. They produce approved suppliers lists via procurement to save schools money (Catalist at the moment). The suppliers that work with schools will most of the time work to Becta guidelines (such as European Electronique, CSE, TME, RM, HP, Dell etc... They all work to Becta guidelines on many issues). They are a lot more influential than you may realise. Oh, and the LEA's which schools are part of definitely *do* listen to Becta.
CyberNerd Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) Using an open source solution with Terminal Services, just to avoid upgrading to Vista at some point in the future? There were compelling reasons when we moved to linux/MSTS four years ago. Now there are just more reasons. Have you ever thought why isn't Linux installed on PC's just as Microsoft Windows is? you know Asus are expecting to sell 5million linux eeepc's this year. I'm sure Gates will jump on the bandwagon, but the point that Becta are making is that if you enter into an MS schools agreement you will be paying MS for your linux boxes regardless of whether you run windows. that is unfair. I'm not going to exclude students from working at home because they run linux,mac or windows. By deploying office2007 without considering ODF you are doing just that. Edited January 11, 2008 by CyberNerd
greenfieldsupport Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 The point is that neither .doc or MOOXML meet the industry standard specification (ODF) that BECTA (and several other countries) have already agreed upon. Nearly every other office product in existence complies with BECTA's requirements, except MS office who are attempting to further lock schools into their upgrade cycle by introducing another format (that even office 2007 doesn't comply with). If you run any version of office, the very least you should do is install the ODF compatibility pack. http://www.sun.com/software/star/odf_plugin/whats_new.jsp#odfplugin1.1 Microsoft.... industry standard.....?? lol!!!!! if you put them together it would almost be as big an oxymoron as microsoft works!!!
greenfieldsupport Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 "There are three R's to windows tech support: "Restart, Reboot, Reinstall"" - hmmm your missing "remove"
Dos_Box Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Pity EVERY SINGLE stand at BETT is using Vista (apart from apple).... talk about mixed messages Strange, I've been here a week and most of the stands I've been to have been running good old XP, and as for us we are using the Sun Java Desktop System for Solaris
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now