Can I get the panel's input on something

[Oaktech]

Our primary school has decided that it is time for a new server, and this is what their usual support guy has come back with, something about it just doesn't sit right for me with a school of about 300 pupils and 50 staff, with 3 class sets of laptops. Maybe I'm old fashioned.

 

I suggest creating each teacher a virtual machine and having them access it from class laptops as well as from home. This meets all data protection guidelines as well as reducing the risk of breaches from lost equipment. It also means as staff can access the VMs from their own computers with a VPN at home the likelihood of laptops going missing or being damaged is reduced.

 

It’s straight forward to set up the laptops for the classes and as they won’t be logged into by other accounts it can speed the process up. I could also create a Hyper-V replication centre with the old server so you would have complete data redundancy on site.

 

If you would like me to pop in to discuss or just like to clarify give me a call. I would charge £1000 configuration and installation, (this includes the full migration and hyper-v setup and would be additional to normal service charges) and the server is in the region of £4050.00 exact price on the day of the order as it fluctuates.

 

As a platform to run such a system I would strongly recommend the Dell 12G PowerEdge R720XD range, though they are a rack mount server they offer great scalability and are ideal for virtualisation which is where I think the school should head.

 

 

Whilst this server is a rack mount model you could install it into the server room on the back shelf, it’s worth it as this model is being phased out so I have managed to get a great price and with the 5 years warranty there really is no worry for the long term.

 

The following model should do all you need:-

 

Model Dell 12G PowerEdge R720 Rack Server (2U)

Processor(s) 2* 2.60Ghz Intel® Xeon® Processor E5-2620 v2 (6 Cores, 12 Threads (HT), 15M Cache, Up to 2.6 GHz)

Memory 65536mb 64 GB (8 x 8GB) RDIMM, 1600MHz, Standard Volt, Dual Rank

Chassis 2u Rack Server

System Hard Drives 2*300gb SAS 6Gbps, 2.5-in, 10K RPM Hard Drive (Hot Plug) (R1)

Gives a total of 300Gb Space with redundancy for 1 drives failing. (Raid 1)

Data Hard Drives 4*3TB NLSAS 6Gbps, 2.5-in, 7.2K RPM Hard Drive (Hot Plug) (R10)

Gives a total of 6TB Space with redundancy for 2 drives failing. (Raid 10)

Optical Drive 16 x DVD Drive

Network Card BROADCOM 57800 DUAL 10GB NIC + DUAL 1GB NIC

RAID Option PERC H710 Adapter RAID Controller

Graphics Card Matrox G200eW w/ 8MB

Warranty DELL - 5 YEARS PRO SUPPORT

[ICTDirect_Dave]

Crikey!!

 

If you don't mind setting it up yourself give me a call mate! I'll blow that out of the water!

[Oaktech]

Yeah, see, I didn't think that it was particularly bad value for brand new hardware, but the software set up proposal looked weird... I appreciate it's significantly more expensive than you, but it's purchased through. how shall we put this, conventional retail channels

 

I'm going to see what everyone else makes of the proposal and then we'll take it from there.

[Steve21]

Do you want honest opinion on most of it? (Most would change) Or just generically high level

 

Steve

[Oaktech]

Go for it...

 

I wouldn't be doing anything like what he is proposing personally.

[pcstru]

The pricing seems OK (ish) for the server. We've just bought 2 for a little more money but beefier spec. The concept is a bit ambitious - no mention of available bandwidth which if staff need to access a VM from home over a VPN would be critical. The spec is possibly a bit thin to support 50 staff using individual VM's. No mention of licensing costs either - you would need to buy them for the VM's.

 

Personally, if they already have laptops, I'd stick with that and make sure they are bitlockered for the DP issue in the event of theft and staff are appropriately trained (because even with VM's they can email themselves stuff and they will!). So it basically seems like a solution desperately looking for a problem. A case of "when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail".

 

[ETA - it would be interesting to know the brief, what was the exact problem that the consultant was asked to 'solve'].

Edited March 26, 2015 by pcstru

[Oaktech]

@pcstru

 

As far as I know the brief was 'my single cpu quad core xeon with 16gb of ram and 3 hyperv machines is 6 years old and out of warranty... help"

 

School currently has 30mb/10mb domestic broadband with an MS TMG. :/

Edited March 26, 2015 by Oaktech

[Steve21]

I suggest creating each teacher a virtual machine and having them access it from class laptops as well as from home. This meets all data protection guidelines as well as reducing the risk of breaches from lost equipment. It also means as staff can access the VMs from their own computers with a VPN at home the likelihood of laptops going missing or being damaged is reduced.

 

Personally I think that's stupid as hell, huge waste of resources and additional licensing costs. If he means terminal services etc that's just an added drain on the server for no real benefit on a small site, and do primary teachers honestly need remote access via VPN? If so I'd query why you'd buy laptops at all and not just fixed desktops if they aren't moving.

 

It’s straight forward to set up the laptops for the classes and as they won’t be logged into by other accounts it can speed the process up. I could also create a Hyper-V replication centre with the old server so you would have complete data redundancy on site.

 

Sounds like he means local accounts and not bothering to domain join them, meaning no need to bother setting up policies/imaging etc. End of day all devices should be able to be used by anyone who logs on and not linked to a specific user or when one breaks they lose everything.

 

If your old server is being replaced I'm assuming it'll struggle to support what's created on the new one in terms of replication etc, but always nice to have a replica if you have space etc.

 

 

If you would like me to pop in to discuss or just like to clarify give me a call. I would charge £1000 configuration and installation, (this includes the full migration and hyper-v setup and would be additional to normal service charges) and the server is in the region of £4050.00 exact price on the day of the order as it fluctuates.

 

Honestly I'd say that's fair game, our old primaries were between 3-4k~ for a full install which included new server/all GPOs/accounts etc but they were lower spec.

 

 

As a platform to run such a system I would strongly recommend the Dell 12G PowerEdge R720XD range, though they are a rack mount server they offer great scalability and are ideal for virtualisation which is where I think the school should head.

 

Do you have a server rack if it's a primary and single server? If so I'd dump that and get a tower, cheaper to spec, easier to move around if knowing your primary rooms like changing often. No benefit at all of rack mounted in small enviroment imho.

 

Whilst this server is a rack mount model you could install it into the server room on the back shelf, it’s worth it as this model is being phased out so I have managed to get a great price and with the 5 years warranty there really is no worry for the long term.

 

If it's being installed on a shelf I'd be highly concerned with trusting a vibrating server to not move slowly over time and jump off Towers etc have feet afterall.

 

In terms of pricing Dell kit can be seen on the Dell education portal if you'd like to see options.

 

 

The following model should do all you need:-

 

Model Dell 12G PowerEdge R720 Rack Server (2U)

Processor(s) 2* 2.60Ghz Intel® Xeon® Processor E5-2620 v2 (6 Cores, 12 Threads (HT), 15M Cache, Up to 2.6 GHz)

Memory 65536mb 64 GB (8 x 8GB) RDIMM, 1600MHz, Standard Volt, Dual Rank

Chassis 2u Rack Server

System Hard Drives 2*300gb SAS 6Gbps, 2.5-in, 10K RPM Hard Drive (Hot Plug) (R1)

Gives a total of 300Gb Space with redundancy for 1 drives failing. (Raid 1)

Data Hard Drives 4*3TB NLSAS 6Gbps, 2.5-in, 7.2K RPM Hard Drive (Hot Plug) (R10)

Gives a total of 6TB Space with redundancy for 2 drives failing. (Raid 10)

Optical Drive 16 x DVD Drive

Network Card BROADCOM 57800 DUAL 10GB NIC + DUAL 1GB NIC

RAID Option PERC H710 Adapter RAID Controller

Graphics Card Matrox G200eW w/ 8MB

Warranty DELL - 5 YEARS PRO SUPPORT

 

Don't really see the need for the graphics card unless you're insisting on running VDI etc.

 

Do you have 10GB support on your network or a SAN etc? If not seems a waste buying that unless you have plans to upgrade in the near future but in reality with those number of computers it's unlikely you'll ever need 10GB for single server.

 

Don't seem to have a server OS on the quote either (unless you're buying it seperately), bearing in mind you'll need Data Centre if you're running that many VMs

 

Personal preference but I'd also much rather 6 drives using RAID 6 to give more storage space, and better reliability overall. Guess that depends on preference and whether you are going VM mad or not.

 

Steve

[Steve21]

On a side note, I'm pretty sure the 720 isn't made anymore either, thought it was 730 last time I looked on Dell, so be curious to know where it's from too As in is this a set spec he's found somewhere cheap, or what he actually think you need. (Might be wrong though)

 

Steve

[DavePa]

On a side note, I'm pretty sure the 720 isn't made anymore either, thought it was 730 last time I looked on Dell, so be curious to know where it's from too As in is this a set spec he's found somewhere cheap, or what he actually think you need. (Might be wrong though)

 

Steve

 

We purchase from here Server Source - Europe's Leading provider of Refurbished Dell PowerEdge and PowerVault servers

 

In our case the warranty (5 years, 24/7 with 4hr response) is direct with the supplier, not with Dell.

[Steve21]

We purchase from here Server Source - Europe's Leading provider of Refurbished Dell PowerEdge and PowerVault servers

 

In our case the warranty (5 years, 24/7 with 4hr response) is direct with the supplier, not with Dell.

 

(Edit - rewording)

As in that's the one mentioned in the OP? As it says: Warranty DELL - 5 YEARS PRO SUPPORT etc. Certainly wouldn't think 4k for a refurb is value at all for a primary :s

 

Steve

Edited March 26, 2015 by Steve21

[pcstru]

@pcstru

 

As far as I know the brief was 'my single cpu quad core xeon with 16gb of ram and 3 hyperv machines is 6 years old and out of warranty... help"

So 3 guests on the hyper-v machine, what are the guests actually doing? DC, fileserver, mail?

School currently has 30mb/10mb domestic broadband with an MS TMG. :/

I think that would be OK for a handfull of concurrent users using an efficient remote client. The whole virtual desktop solution seems somewhat ... "Out of the box".

 

Reading the meat again :

 

"It’s straight forward to set up the laptops for the classes and as they won’t be logged into by other accounts it can speed the process up. I could also create a Hyper-V replication centre with the old server so you would have complete data redundancy on site. "

 

So, if you had a bunch of old creaky laptops, they could be set up as thin client devices and boot+logon to a VM might be quicker. That's the best I can make of their thinking.

 

You say there are three class sets of laptops so 90 possible (?) concurrent RDP sessions. If that were the case, the server would (IMO) be underspecified to do all that and the three mystery server guests that it seems to need to replace.

 

Sounds like a typical bit of hit and run consultancy in the making but I'm probably totally misunderstanding something vital.

[pcstru]

On a side note, I'm pretty sure the 720 isn't made anymore either, thought it was 730 last time I looked on Dell,

I had to check what we bought and you are correct - R730's it is.

[witch]

Seems really complicated for no good reason. Server seems OK but a bit expensive - and I'd have an HP - why don't you ask my normal supplier, who you know really well, @Oaktech

[dry]

It sounds concerningly like the car crash that my current school's 'support' company implemented (before my time). I'm gradually unpicking the mess.

 

Our server and network infrastructure is waaay under-specced for running 60+ simultaneous RDC sessions and I'm feeling the pain. Constantly getting called to classrooms and teachers get annoyed when your first answer is 'the whole system is pants'.

[Ephelyon]

@dry, I know the feeling. I'm operating an Honesty Policy with staff at the moment when they ask why their 8-year-old desktop is so slow... money. My hope is that eventually enough people will whinge - perhaps then I could virtualise the whinging and treat it as an aggregate resource across multiple whingers?

 

Back on topic, a VDI setup of this nature is excessive for the school's needs I think, though doing something similar with a beefy RDS VM could achieve similar goals. I outlined a setup that might work equally well for you here earlier today.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Ephelyon

[Norphy]

This is just thinking out loud but my impressions are as follows:

 

So this is to replace an existing server doing (presumably?) everything plus he's trying to shorehorn it into doing VDI on the cheap for 50 people? Yeah, don't do that.

 

The server itself would make a reasonably decent virtual host (although I'd want faster hard disks for the virtual machine storage) but it would mean that you would be quite literally putting all of your eggs in one basket. Having server and desktop virtualisation on the same platform is a bad idea. Plus there is no mention of management software here, what would you use for VDI provisioning?

 

Additionally, remote access to your systems is not always the ideal working solution for those who take their work home. That assumes that they have access to a stable internet connection which even in this day and age is not always guaranteed. 10mbps upstream also seems a little on the constrained for that scenario

@Steve21, the G200 is just a basic graphics solution which lets you put an image on a screen. It dates back to the late 90s. It has no functionality for VDI whatsoever

[Ephelyon]

If I'm honest, I'd far rather schools paid for a decent Internet connection at a teacher's home address than provide them with a laptop. As you rightly say, the endpoint is only as good as its connection back to the system!

[Arthur]

Network Card BROADCOM 57800 DUAL 10GB NIC + DUAL 1GB NIC

You might want to avoid Broadcom NICs.

[Oaktech]

Ok, Many thanks everyone... From my own thoughts and reading, a conversation with the chap @witch alluded to and my former NM, and the excellent answers from @Steve21, @Norphy, @Ephelyon and anyone else I've not mentioned because they are on the first page, and I'm not, I've sent this response:

 

Hi $BusinessManager,

 

I have some serious concerns about this… The server he’s quoting for is already end of life and has been superseded by a newer model. I’m not sure if he means he conveniently has a 420 of that spec – in which case, where has that come from? Or if he can get one, in which case is it a refurb of some description or new old stock from someone? This worries me as your warranty may end up not being with Dell but with a 3rd party supplier. The 430 that has superseded it is available and is slightly cheaper direct from Dell for that spec. I also would NEVER recommend a rackmount server without a rack to put it in. Servers vibrate and this has a very real possibility of walking itself off the proposed shelf location! Additionally to this, tower style servers are often cheaper.

 

There are also other problems with this spec. Broadcom as a network interface manufacturer for a server running HyperV – which it certainly would be, is not a good idea due to the way they handle information. The hard drives that have been specified, whilst offering reasonable storage in a fairly sensible configuration, are quite slow and if you are running database applications such as Exchange – or in the future SIMS – they will simply cause a bottleneck accessing data.

 

The issues with the server spec could probably be dealt with fairly minor tweaks, my main concern however is what he is actually proposing to do for teacher access. I’m going to stick my neck out here and say it is totally ludicrous. I simply don’t believe it is practical. The sheer load that this type of virtual working is going to put on the server itself and on your wired and wireless network during the day and your current internet connection after hours is going to be unsustainable. It smacks of a solution desperately looking for a problem.

 

This solution certainly has some of the merits he is suggesting about data breaches and such, but it rather feels like he is sidestepping issues of proper training of staff, proper domain level security checks and robust policies. Without proper training your staff can render all of this good intention null and void simply by taking documents home on a stick or emailing something. I am also of the opinion that conventional VPN is now old, technology which not every home broadband connection supports and going forwards you should be looking at using windows 8.1/10 DirectAccess VPN which requires nothing more than a standard internet connection, or simply using a terminal server environment only for external access which requires far less system resources.

 

Another concern, is that if virtual working were to be implemented fully as suggested it would mean that any recent investment in laptops would be rendered devoid of benefit because the functions that would be required of them could be performed by a sub £100 thin terminal and whilst I appreciate that this could be seen as a benefit for the future, right now it devalues your entire device fleet.

 

In short,

• I think this server is already obsolete,

• I am concerned about where it might be coming from,

• The server is barely suitable as the spec stands,

• There are issues with the specified components of the server,

• The virtual working solution proposed is just plain weird,

• This proposal does not take into account stresses on, or the capabilities of, your current infrastructure,

• Issues of staff training and awareness around DPA are not addressed, whilst controls that have been placed can still be easily defeated,

• I am concerned that this level of reliance on a single centralised server to provide *everything* including the facility for day to day computing is simply not wise,

• There are much more conventional methods of doing some of what has been proposed (standard terminal services)

• There are newer more effective ways of implementing other aspects of the proposal (Microsoft DirectAccess)

• A single outage anywhere on the network would render some or all teachers unable to do anything.

• Devalues your current PC/Laptop fleet

[witch]

Wow

If they don't listen to that - they are mad!

A comprehensive, considered and sensible response

[Steve21]

Ok, Many thanks everyone... From my own thoughts and reading, a conversation with the chap @witch alluded to and my former NM, and the excellent answers from @Steve21, @Norphy, @Ephelyon and anyone else I've not mentioned because they are on the first page, and I'm not, I've sent this response:

 

Just a tiny lil thing, but isn't it R720 and R730? Said R420/430

 

But yep otherwise would certainly say it's a good response, and well suggested/explained out

 

Steve

[pcstru]

I've sent this response:

Good. If I were receiving it I would think it could be improved by clearly stating what the actual problem is (replacement of an old, inadequate server running three guests) and suggesting an appropriate solution (an appropriate server) - assuming I have that correct.

[Oaktech]

Just a tiny lil thing, but isn't it R720 and R730? Said R420/430

 

But yep otherwise would certainly say it's a good response, and well suggested/explained out

 

Steve

 

Your point is taken - I will send an errata on the model numbers.

 

Good. If I were receiving it I would think it could be improved by clearly stating what the actual problem is (replacement of an old, inadequate server running three guests) and suggesting an appropriate solution (an appropriate server) - assuming I have that correct.

 

She knows what the problem is, she asked for the quote, what she didn't ask for is the weird-ass VDI thing, that is all the support chap's concoction.

[Patrick]

Absolute over kill for a primary school. A decent spec tower server with hyper v will do that job. Is he/she suggesting virtual sessions so he can charge a fortune to train and repair it when it breaks?