Malaysia Airlines MH17 Lost Over Ukraine - Shot Down?

[6Foot2]

Link: BBC News - LIVE: Ukraine airliner 'crash' updates

 

There were 280 passengers and 15 crew members on board.

[FN-GM]

This link is better for a more accurate report - http://avherald.com/h?article=47770f9d&opt=0

[Arthur]

There were 280 passengers and 15 crew members on board.

 

Leading HIV researchers lost as flight MH17 is downed in Ukraine « The Telegraph

 

The attacked Malaysia Airlines flight was carrying more than 100 of the world's leading Aids experts who were flying to an international conference in Melbourne, including the HIV researcher and "true humanitarian" Joep Lange.

 

The victims, which have left the international HIV research community in mourning, included staff from the World Health Organisation and medical researchers, health workers and activists who were due to attend the twentieth International Aids Conference. Glenn Thomas, a Geneva-based WHO media adviser, is also believed to have been aboard.

 

Dr Lange, a Dutchman, who was on board with his wife Jacqueline van Tongeren, was a former president of the International Aids Society and has been researching HIV for 30 years. He has authored more than 350 papers and helped lead the fight for the availability of affordable treatments across Asia and Africa.

[Alkaline]

Justice will never be done.

[computer_expert]

 

Leading HIV researchers lost as flight MH17 is downed in Ukraine « The Telegraph

 

Two of the Australians onboard MH17 were relatives of the same family that also lost two family members in MH370

[Vasriel]

Saw on the news tonight that there were 80 children on the flight. Such an utter waste of life, the families of these poor people have my deepest sympathy

[superatticman]

If this is traced back to Russia then surely the minimum that must happen is for massive sanctions to be imposed. Ie take the World Cup away from Russia and freeze their assets.

 

Sadly a military response is never going to be the answer. Will end up in global nuclear conflict. And that, comrade, is gonna put us all into a world of sh@t.....

[seawolf]

No, war is a real possible result of this. It could either become just a wider regional conflict or draw in many other nations. At the end of WW2, everyone believed war had come to an end because of the Atom bomb. And, how many wars have their been since 1945? Nuclear weapons won't stop it.

[Bananas]

If Putin doesn't start behaving I can see this going up in everyone's faces.

 

You've got Russia on one side heavily ensconced into Crimea and probably heavily fortified their positions. I can see the build up along the Polish border increasing with Nato forces and it'll only take Russia to get caught doing something like this again and I can see us wading in against Russia.

 

Putin wants to rebuild the USSR he's not going to stop short of being forced to militarily

[superatticman]

Nuclear weapons won't stop it.

 

This was always going to be the likely scenario for a global nuclear war. Localised conflict in some godforsaken part of Eastern Europe or Arabia. Escalated to non nuclear conflict between Russia and the West. Further escalated to small nuclear weapons being used in the region purely against military targets. And then the ultimate escalation to long range ballistic missiles being fired across the globe against 'strategic' targets. Ie London, New York, Moscow. A chilling but hopefully unlikely scenario.

 

Putin is looking at the West as being divided and militarily impotent. We've made massive cutbacks and the likes of ourselves gambled massively in axing aircraft carriers before the new ones are even delivered. Trust me, Russia is in no great shape militarily either. Funds are low, serviceability of equipment poor and numbers of what they posses often exaggerated.

 

However they probably do have the stomach for a fight to 'reinvent' the USSR and Warsaw Pact. Whether we have the stomach to stop them is another matter.

[Dos_Box]

Calm down people. There is not the possibility of, and nor will there be, a nuclear war.

Now we must play a waiting game until all of the evidence is gathered and in place until concreat blame can be laid, even if the POTUS (President of the United States) has pointed fingers today.

This is not the cold war, and as much as president Putin may seem to be trying to reassemble the old USSR, they now exist in a globalised world and with all that entails.

What this means for Russia is that if the UN choose to introduce further sactions (they are already under some financial ones), it could hurt Russia far more than a localised conflict ever would.

Perhaps banning the import of CPU's, computers and networking kit? How about mobile telephony equipment?

As I said, it's a gloablised world and it's a long time since Russia manufactured everything it required.

That is of course if the crime was commited by those under their influance using equipment they supplied.

[Alkaline]

Wars start out with a small confined conflict and slowly escalate to full scale total war. One day we are going to blow ourselves to kingdom come. But I don't think that time has come yet. Putin acts hard, but he is no fool and not a madman. Remember that who ever pushes the button can expect the same from the other side. So it's pointless, even taking into account pre emptive and all that crap.

 

Maybe in 30 or so years when humans demand too much from the earth and panic sets in. At least once we are gone earth will repair its self after a few thousand years and new life will begin. Humans never learn until its too late. Hopefully who ever replaces us will do things better.

[Bananas]

I think anyone's personal view on it is as valid as anyone else's, I don't think anyone will start lobbing nukes about its not a huge stretch to see something like Ukraine heading towards another "cuba"

 

In many ways this not being the cold war makes Russia more likely to keep doing what they're doing given what they've done so far putin can't back down or admit anything.

 

The Ukrainians seem to claim to have conversations between Russian commanders and rebels almost admitting they shot it down. All heresay at the moment.

 

We do know former USSR states in the area are cropping themselves, Poland especially are demanding more and more Nato troops.

 

No one expected Germany to March across Europe. The rule with these things is expect anything. I'm sure there won't be nukes it's in no one's interest especially if Russia is attempting expansion they don't want contaminated land.

 

It remains to see what they will hit Russia with over this but the warning shots need to stop and real sanctions need to bite. Of course a big chunk of Europe are crapping it because of becoming reliant on Russian gas which is a huge problem.

 

What happens when the osce get in to the crash site proper will be interesting but seeing as it looks like the black boxes have been returned, which is a huge problem they like to recover them themselves so they can see how the crash site played out.

 

Of course there are terrible stories that the site is compromised with bodies being removed with out authorisation and suitcases etc being looted.

 

What's the betting that something critical will be missing from the site now.

 

I've got no confidence with the investigation at the moment but I hope I'm wrong and they can along with the intelligence services provide irrefutable proof that Russia has been supplying these scumbags and training them on their operation.

Russia is a lot more dangerous and ruthless than people realise, when you look into what happened in chechnya for example.

 

One to watch but whatever putin is a problem...

[penfold_99]

Irrespective of what happened to down the plane it is unforgivable to restrict access to the site.

 

This is probably a controversial view but if access is continually denied a any overriding multi national force of Dutch, Malaysian, Brits, Yanks and anyone else who wants to join the quest for truth should parachuted in to secure the crash site and allow an investigation to be conducted but more importantly bring dignity to passengers who bodies are just laying out in the open like discarded toys of an alleged drunk pro Russian command.

 

We will probably never know who ordered what as the black box is gone.

Edited July 20, 2014 by penfold_99

[6Foot2]

Irrespective of what happened to down the plane it is unforgiv

@penfold_99: Your reply seems incomplete.

[penfold_99]

@penfold_99: Your reply seems incomplete.

a case of fat fingers on the iphone app.

[Bananas]

Yes I think this is rapidly approaching the point of military intervention in the immediate area of the crash site.

 

Airdrop special forces in to secure the perimeter then bring in the rest, as you say use the military of all affected countries.

There's very few things that quickly unites politicians than intervening into securing a proper crash investigation

[seawolf]

@Dos_Box I wasn't implying that there would be a nuclear war over this. Only that a country holding nuclear weapons hasn't stopped wars from being fought with or against those countries (e.g. Korean War, Vietnam War, Gulf War, 9/11, Soviet War in Afghanistan, Chechnya war, etc. etc.).

 

If severe sanctions or embargoes were placed on Russia, they would be likely to retaliate militarily if it began to impact them in any substantial way. Backing a tiger into a corner is only going to result in one thing - a nasty fight. The only way this ends peacefully is if everyone is happy to forgive and forget or Russia backs down tail between its legs, and I'm not seeing anything that indicates either is likely to happen real soon. Escalation is the most likely outcome.

[localzuk]

Calm down people. There is not the possibility of, and nor will there be, a nuclear war.

 

Really? You're making a rather large assumption there, that sanity will prevail over all people who have control over these weapons. I for one am not 100% confident of that sanity.

 

Now we must play a waiting game until all of the evidence is gathered and in place until concreat blame can be laid, even if the POTUS (President of the United States) has pointed fingers today.

 

Very difficult to do when you've got the "rebels" on the ground moving everything and preventing investigators from going to the site.

 

This is not the cold war, and as much as president Putin may seem to be trying to reassemble the old USSR, they now exist in a globalised world and with all that entails.

What this means for Russia is that if the UN choose to introduce further sactions (they are already under some financial ones), it could hurt Russia far more than a localised conflict ever would.

Perhaps banning the import of CPU's, computers and networking kit? How about mobile telephony equipment?

As I said, it's a gloablised world and it's a long time since Russia manufactured everything it required.

That is of course if the crime was commited by those under their influance using equipment they supplied.

 

You're underestimating the Russians I fear. There's a difference between "need" and "want" and its especially pronounced in Russia. The people of Russia have endured great hardships, yet they have managed to produce some amazing technologies - which the West has looked to for help at times. Saying they need the rest of the world ignores this, and also ignores the whole "nationalistic pride" of Russia. Think back to Japan entering WW2. Why did Japan attack America? Because America backed them into a corner regarding oil. If the world isolated Russia to the extent implied in your post, do you really think they'd just sit back, apologise and give up? Or do you think they'd fight?

 

I don't think this will be a quick escalation to all out war. I am more of the mind that this will escalate to a second cold war. Its the world Putin grew powerful in. He understands that world and its pretty clear he wants a return to it.

[truebluesteve]

I don't think this will be a quick escalation to all out war. I am more of the mind that this will escalate to a second cold war. Its the world Putin grew powerful in. He understands that world and its pretty clear he wants a return to it.

 

I tend to agree. Putin is a dangerous man and harks for a return to the days when the Soviet Union was a world superpower. If he's happy to invade Eastern Ukraine (by proxy) on the pretext that Russian nationals are being subverted, then I wouldn't put anything past him.

 

The Russians have huge natural resources and for some part have us and other countries by the short and curlies by supplying natural gas - so in some ways we need them more than they need us. However no country can exist in total isolation these days and I think that fear may be the thing that holds Putin back.

[CAM]

Got to admit, I don't trust the information coming out of Ukraine either and this is down to me drawing information from 2 Western sources (BBC, Sky News) and two eastern sources (Al-Jazeera, Russia Today). Seeing both sides of the story, there is no clear picture as to what is going on. What one side says, the other denies and says the opposite.

 

As Angela Merkel said, it is too early to draw conclusions. But one thing I have noticed is Western media is behaving in a dangerous and firebrand manner leading me to question the truth.

 

For the record, my opinion is the Donetsk militants may have shot the craft down by accident through misidentification. They have been under air attack and already shot down a lot of aircraft, I can easily see some untrained militants panicking at an airliner going overhead if they get hold of sophisticated anti-air kit and failing to properly identify it. The question is why fly over a warzone with an anti-air war going on!?!?

 

That then makes me question why the plane was diverted further North then it should have been and why it was told to fly lower then it should have been. For all we know, Ukraine may have been hoping for this outcome to rally support. Brutal and harsh, but I don't trust the current government in Kiev right now. Again, multiple sources.

Edited July 21, 2014 by CAM

[pcstru]

I don't think this will be a quick escalation to all out war. I am more of the mind that this will escalate to a second cold war. Its the world Putin grew powerful in. He understands that world and its pretty clear he wants a return to it.

Unlikely. At the fall of the Berlin wall, Russia was economically destitute - barely able to feed their people, let alone maintain a large, modern military. They had to have aid to safely scrap a number of their nuclear submarines. Their current resurgence is based mainly on oil, gas and coal exports, about 60% of which is to Europe, 30% to Asia. Europe easily can't stop buying Russian Gas and Oil (but especially gas) or lights will be going out and people will be cold this winter. Putin might be viewed in the west as a little unpleasant, but the politicians know voters subjected to cold, dark winters don't vote them back into power.

 

As outrages go, shooting down a plane doesn't rate very highly anyway. The Captain of the USS, William Rogers III was awarded the Legion of Merit for "exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer from April 1987 to May 1989". Iran Air Flight 655 was shot down on 3rd July 1988, killing 290 people, including 66 children.

[tommej]

Sky news at its finest!

 

[localzuk]

 

Information and mis-information.

The problem the UK populous has is that we are not being supplied factual information, but are drip fed lies anh half truths. look at the story bellow.

 

BBC News - MH17 crash: Cameron urges Putin to allow site access

 

Anyone see anything puzzling ? Well, the plane crashed in the Ukraine. Putin has troops in Crimea but not Ukraine, if he did the Ukraine would be screaming from the rooftops. The situation in the Ukraine has been created by efforts to de-stabilize the country with debt, corruption and misuse of power right at the top.

 

Very few know what's going on in blighty about Ukraine, same as Syria, Israel and the Gaza.

 

For those that are interested, I have found liveleak and the middle eastern news agencies far superior.

 

Basically the Ukraine is split into pro Ukraine (west) and the pro Russian (east). Crimea has already been brought back into Russian control as agreed by a vote of 90% of the population. The Russian rebels (inaccurate as they are Ukrainian) , are the Ukraine people who reject the rule of the Pro Ukraine. The whole situation is made a whole lot better with EU help offering billions in debt to Ukraine, the US supplying arms and funding to as many terroists it can find so that it insures more funding to its global spy network.

 

The whole thing stinks, the whole arab uprising has been done to destabilise the middle east but will backfire big time as the world sinks deeper into unrest and civil war.

 

I'd say that there are several factual inaccuracies in that post. Firstly, you're trying to say there is corruption at the top in Ukraine. No doubt at all this is true, however before the entire crisis started the corruption was rife to the extent that the leader ignored the majority desire to have greater ties with the EU because Putin told them not to. That kicked the whole thing off.

 

You say Putin has troops in Crimea but not E. Ukraine, yet there is a wealth of video and photographic evidence that Russian special forces are present there - calling the shots.

 

Next, you've said that Crimea was taken back into control by a vote of 90% of the population. Every international observer involved said it wasn't a fair referendum. The questions on the paper were "leave the Ukraine" or "leave the Ukraine and join Russia". There wasn't a "stay in Ukraine". As such, people who thought it was an illegitimate referendum didn't vote - the Tatars, for example (who have been experiencing increased discrimination since this all happened).

 

The split isn't as clear cut as you make out either. Many of the journalists and international observers have spoken to normal people in the East, and before it became more of a military issue, the prevailing opinion was that the people wanted a bit more independence but wanted to remain part of Ukraine.

 

The mainstream media isn't a great place to get information, as you say. Videos from people on the ground are a very good source though. Reports from people there etc...

 

For the record, my opinion is the Donetsk militants may have shot the craft down by accident through misidentification. They have been under air attack and already shot down a lot of aircraft, I can easily see some untrained militants panicking at an airliner going overhead if they get hold of sophisticated anti-air kit and failing to properly identify it. The question is why fly over a warzone with an anti-air war going on!?!?.

 

The plane diverted to avoid storms further north. There weren't any exclusion zones in place either.

Edited July 21, 2014 by localzuk

[seawolf]

Blimey, the conspiracy theorist (Galway) is back.