SIMS Registers and Fire Drills

[creese]

:-D

 

And don't get me wrong, while I disagree with that I agree with your points that lists etc can be fraught with issues and inaccuracies.

 

Regardless of agreement, I wonder if any schools are brave enough not to have a fire list? Or speak up if they don't now?

 

Okay you win. Schools should also have a Flood Register. Lightening Strike Register. etc. etc. and at sometime during the day... some lessons. What is wrong with the Official Register? Why is it taken? Why is it more inaccurate than something with a misleading name? So many questions.

 

Show me when a register saved a life or lack of one cause loss, then I'll change my mind. :-)

[elsiegee40]

We have fire registers. They are basically check lists of the students in each class so that we can check who we have should there be no access to the electronic system. It's not perfect, but in a small school like ours, each teacher can be reasonably relied on to know which of their pupils was in school at any time.

[GREED]

So I think more the point of having the list of children known to be in school, so the normal register. I'm not suggesting a separate specific on for "enter emergency here". What I am trying to understand is, is the general feeling that children should not be accounted for in the event of an emergency, and just let the fire brigade come and search the building for anyone. That is where the argument seems to have gotten to...

 

To be clear, not a separate list but some way to account for evacuated and or missing children (and staff let's not forget!)

[creese]

Some really strange words and phrases used above.

'Reasonably relied on...'

'just let the fire brigade come and search....'

 

Wow... Now I'm sure I did the right thing. 5 1/2 days left....

[GREED]

Well that is the suggestion, if school staff are not accounting for who is in and not, because the fire brigade will ignore it anyway, then they will search the buildings regardless... I'm struggling where the confusion is, particularly as this is what most responders to this thread have insinuated...

 

Totally agree with Elsiegee40, something has to be better than nothing.

 

I'm also lost as to why it is pointless to know if you are missing 2 kids, and possibly know where they are? Surely that helps the fire brigade as to where to search first, possibly. At the very least... hence why I still think they are a good idea.

[winng]

I've worked in four different schools during the past ten years and when it comes to emergency evacuations they have struggled to account for every student (and staff) despite their efforts and recording they did (account for them all that is).

 

Three schools used the "print all registers" at the time the evacuation bell sounded whether from SIMS or CMIS but although this identified who was registered AM/PM it didn't necessarily mean they were still onsite as they could have gone to the dentist, etc. (noted by the student reception or wherever, on paper). By the time it took to print all the registers, take them outside, Tutors endeavour to tick off the students before them, etc. anyone missing would have been burnt to a cinder or suffered with smoke inhalation (in the event of a real fire of course). Accounting for staff always felt a secondary concern and quite often no formal register of who was out of the building ever took place!

 

The one school that appeared to do better than others was where they had prepared laminated copies of the Tutor group registers that were refreshed every Term (three times per year in their case) and kept by Reception. In the event of an evacuation they were taken out and handed to the respective Tutors who would mark off their students, obviously knowing who was in or out that day because they had personally taken the AM/PM registers hadn't they... This meant that no-one had to stay inside waiting for the printer to churn out paper registers, etc. and thus reduce further risk to staff. Okay, it might not be fool-proof but it was quicker and potentially safer for all concerned.

[creese]

The one school that appeared to do better than others was where they had prepared laminated copies of the Tutor group registers that were refreshed every Term (three times per year in their case) and kept by Reception. In the event of an evacuation they were taken out and handed to the respective Tutors who would mark off their students, obviously knowing who was in or out that day because they had personally taken the AM/PM registers hadn't they... This meant that no-one had to stay inside waiting for the printer to churn out paper registers, etc. and thus reduce further risk to staff. Okay, it might not be fool-proof but it was quicker and potentially safer for all concerned.

 

When pushed, this is what I advise schools to do, but have it hung on the classroom door. I stipulate it is for their own, false, peace of mind, nothing more.

 

An occasion fire register may be a good idea for fire alarm & procedure tests only.

[PhilNeal]

When I taught (in the olden days) the fire register was in fact a truant trap. These days that is checked on every change of lesson so I can't see the point of wasting time on finding a solution to something that is not encouraged by the experts i.e. the fire service.

[Boredguy]

We used to have registers to check if anyone was "missing" in the event of a fire drill.

Originally it was the old paper book registers, then OMR sheets and finally Bromcom pads.

 

However once we reviewed our procedures with the local Fire Brigade prior to moving to SIMS LM, we did away with taking a register out completely.

Instead each of our 11 buildings have at least 2 staff designated as Fire Marshalls who perform a sweep of that portion of the site to ensure it is empty of students or staff (and have had some training on a fire extinguisher just to be on the safe side)

 

This cut our evacuation procedure down from nearly 15 minutes to under 7.

 

Obviously as a secondary school, this procedure works for us, but for a primary a list would be useful and a laminated class sheet with a line though absentees seems the fastest and most low cost option (as what would happen if the fire started in the server room and took out the network so you couldn't print a up-to-date list even if you wanted to)

[GREED]

When I taught (in the olden days) the fire register was in fact a truant trap. These days that is checked on every change of lesson so I can't see the point of wasting time on finding a solution to something that is not encouraged by the experts i.e. the fire service.

 

I agree Phil. You have clearly spent time with the fire brigade so bow to your knowledge. Is the advice from them not to bother with taking a register when everyone is out on the field, but just get them out and let the fire fighters sweep. Ignore a solution for the moment I'm very interested in the advice from them, based on your or anyone's conversations.

[matt40k]

I'm very interested in the advice from them, based on your or anyone's conversations.

 

Talk to your fire service

 

... Or we could gossip behind the bike sheds if you like

[creese]

I agree Phil. You have clearly spent time with the fire brigade so bow to your knowledge. Is the advice from them not to bother with taking a register when everyone is out on the field, but just get them out and let the fire fighters sweep. Ignore a solution for the moment I'm very interested in the advice from them, based on your or anyone's conversations.

 

Was my tale of the conversation with the Chief Fire Officer from a major Engish city not good enough?

[GREED]

Was my tale of the conversation with the Chief Fire Officer from a major Engish city not good enough?

 

clearly not!

 

I'm kidding. But you have not mentioned what the advice is, only that they have said lists will be ignored. Great to say what not to do, how about what to actually do, a positive step... that is why I asked.

[creese]

I thought I had.

 

Okay, his positive advice was, let the school do whatever they want to do, it makes no difference to us. When we turn up we will do our job, fo r which we have trained intensively. Negative, don't give us meaningless bits of paper with names of missing children as we do not want them. I paraphrase.

 

Having spent 8 years in the army, a few as a medic, you are trained to ignore the people who will be in a panic and irrational and to get on with your job. The hysterical Head who believes a child is missing will become white noise, as will the calm one who claims everyone is safe. It's really simple, why are people making it complicated, spare time at the end of year?

[MrEprise]

I was going to speak up with a long-ish post about how our School does it differently, but @Boredguy 's School does their evacuations the same way as ours (secondary school w/ sixth form) so there's no need.

 

We've found it allows us more time to ensure there is no one left in the buildings and while it still isn't foolproof, it works fine for us. What I've found as a fire marshal is that while Students are generally very good at evacuating promptly, it's the occasional Staff members that let the process down when they assume "oh no, not another false alarm" and don't bother to leave what they're doing.

[StevieM]

for a primary a list would be useful and a laminated class sheet with a line though absentees seems the fastest and most low cost option

 

Surely all you would need would be a number of children in each form group, rather than the specific pupils. If a form teacher knows that there should be 27 children in the class and there are only 26 at the assembly point, does it really matter who it is?

[creese]

Surely all you would need would be a number of children in each form group, rather than the specific pupils. If a form teacher knows that there should be 27 children in the class and there are only 26 at the assembly point, does it really matter who it is?

 

What do you do with the information you have? i.e. 1 pupil in Class 4 may be missing.

[StevieM]

You can pass the information on to the fire crew when they turn up, who will then (as you rightly suggest) ignore it and continue with their sweep. However, when the inevitable backlash comes from parents/LEA/press/solicitors etc., you can say, with confidence, that you identified the issue and took appropriate steps to inform those involved in the rescue attempt. Can you imagine if the school's response was, 'We didn't know little Johnny was still inside because we didn't weren't sure how many pupils there should have been.'? Whether it serves any other purpose, at least doing a head-count is going some way to covering your own back.

[creese]

I now think we have enough material for the Monty Python School Fire sketch. I'm off to claim my script writing fees from Mr J Cleese...

[StevieM]

Whether it serves any other purpose, at least doing a head-count is going some way to covering your own back.

 

Saying that, it would serve another purpose. If I knew I had 27 children in my class and I had 27 children lined up in front of me, I would feel a heck of a whole lot better!

[sparkeh]

Really surprised to see anyone advocating not having some kind of idea if all your pupils are out of a burning building?!

 

My first thought is what happens if the fire brigade sweep the building and miss little Johnny hiding from the flames somewhere? Can you really rely on every nook and cranny being searched in a high pressure situation? If you have a register (or head count number), and the fire brigade come out declare the building empty, you can set them straight. If you don't you could leave someone in there to roast. I imagine there are situations where the fire fighters have to decide whether to press on in a fire or turn back, if they know a child is still in there then their thinking might alter.

 

Also, when dealing with small children, I believe they are more likely to come out of any hiding place if someone is calling their name.

 

We have a laminated card with the absent children marked off. Takes a second.

[creese]

This thread wouldn't last 5 minutes in the US, they seem to have a much higher regard for their Fire Service than many people here. especially if anyone thinks a Fire Person would not risk their lives if attending a school fire but have a blasé attitude of 'There's probably no one in there, so let it burn, were off for tea and bickies.@ Seriously.

 

I despair. We all have our jobs, let the Fire Service do theirs. If The combined Fire Services in this country don't think it is necessary to have a thing called a Fire Register maybe we should trust that one is not needed and stop trying to tell them their job.... or not?

 

Simple facts. Don't need one. Won't be any use to have one. They would not be accurate. They would be ignored. They won't save lives. They are a complete waste of time.

[Arreks]

I think 'fire registers', i.e a printed off non-electronic copy of a series of names that should be present is purely just a public relations gimmick that schools have stuck with for years - simply because if they were suddenly removed, there would be a public outcry from parents and governors.

 

I agree with other posters' points that the Fire Services will simply disregard them, because I don't honestly believe that they would do any less of their job if the register was present. However that doesn't mean that they've always been unnecessary, they've been around for decades and at one point they would've been relied on completely - but things have advanced and changed, for the better.

 

As far as I'm concerned it would cause more havoc to get rid of them even if they are unnecessary.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Arreks

[creese]

they've been around for centuries and as far as I'm concerned it would cause more havoc to get rid of them..

 

They have???

[Arreks]

They have???

 

My bad, I meant to write decades.