Changing from SIMS

[pcstru]

@pcstru just to clarify your point "we don't withhold any data - we can't by law", actually you can, there are provisions under other laws which allow for information to be withheld, mainly if the release of information would put the child at risk.

Requests under DPA are made as subject requests, that is the subject OR guardian with parental responsibility has to make the request. So yes, it is kind of implicit that we don't just send data to just anyone but given a valid request, we cannot withhold subject data.

[pcstru]

Difference between Moodle and any attempt thus far of a open-source UK focused MIS system is Moodle has the backing of universities who have the resources to develop and maintain the systems. Maintain is the key, years ago, before SIMS every LA had a designed their own MIS system, in Suffolk it was called SMAC, but when the time came for a rewrite in C, they didn't want to invest. If you look around, quite a few good ideas have been developed over the years, but the bit where they fall down is the maintenance. Before any code is written you almost need a large community to commit to funding it for a set number of years, document the requirements, then start building something. Perhaps even accept it will only replace one aspect of the MIS system at first then build upon it.

As I recall SMAC wasn't what we would call an MIS, it was geared specifically to support special needs & the centralised statementing process. It was a long time ago though, so I could be misremembering. I think that was true for many LEA's, their internal own rolled systems were rather narrower than what we now think of as a MIS operating at school or LA level.

 

These days I don't think it's just maintenance that would be a problem. The initial build would be huge. Even companies with considerable MIS experience find it difficult to build new/replacement product - look at what has happened and is happening with Progresso. That should be a sobering lesson for anyone thinking that building a product is easy. I don't think schools could have the patience required to get past the teething problems an Open Source system would inevitably have. The MIS is central to the business of a successful school, you would have to be extremely brave to take those risks for the sake of saving a few tens of thousands a year. Would you do it?

[penfold_99]

Requests under DPA are made as subject requests, that is the subject OR guardian with parental responsibility has to make the request. So yes, it is kind of implicit that we don't just send data to just anyone but given a valid request, we cannot withhold subject data.

 

I believe under the education act, subject data can still be withheld.

 

For example if a child is on the at risk register and the parent (who is of concern) requests information about the student (such as where they are living) if releasing the information places the child at risk the information can be legally withheld.

[GREED]

"Because actually the school has not entered some compulsory or legislative information about the new intake yet (often waiting for the week before the census is due to do that little chore)."

 

It's things like "little chore" that start to set a particular tone. Any information stored by a school about a data subject is available, by law, to that data subject on request. So

 

"Too often in current and previous occupations have I heard stories about not allowing certain data areas or past records to be even opened up to parents, students or others."

 

Is misleading. Schools want to send parents and students meaningful, quality data. We don't 'withhold' any data - we can't by law. But we don't send raw CBDS XML to parents either, tempting as it might be! We try and maximise the quality of the INFORMATION that is available to parents, not the quantity of arbitrary data. Data is very much a product used IN a process, it is not the end in and of itself.

 

I think you have misunderstood the meaning of what was being pointed out. I am commenting on experience first and foremost. I know that this occurs in schools and it is considered a chore to enter data purely for census. You seem to have focused very much on the point that the data stored is available to parents and students, which is perfectly true. I however have focused very much on the main subject of the piece which is how will the Data Exchange affect schools and their current processes. I have in no way suggested that schools send data in raw formats, in fact my focus here (although granted I realise this is not quite so clear) is on how data is shared or not shared via parent portals. You have taken some aspects out of context too to back up your points. My focus too was the fact that schools do not want to share the data they have because they are often unaware of the quality of what has been written, and I refer you to the point about behaviour information. How also is it misleading if I am referring to my own experiences given this is an opinion, as well as a fact in the schools I have worked with?

 

"Another angle for this staunch protectionism"

 

"Staunch protectionism" is rhetoric. Of what exactly - data they need to do their job? I guess they would be protective of that!

 

I think I have responded to this, but what I am referring to is how schools wish to protect their data from reaching others, not with the focus of DPA and protecting the individual, but for the fact that the data in its current form (not format, but quality) can show the school in a bad light.

 

"Data Exchange will be taking into account the apparent ‘mastery of data’; what is the master data source."

 

What if there is no master? What if different people need a particular view of data and what if the priorities of those people don't align? What actual question was this 'master data model' meant to solve and is that solution actually applicable to any other question? Is any of this new? What data sharing has been tried before? How successful was it and if the benefits of data are so desirable, why haven't those previous attempts taken over the world?

 

Well now this is the million dollar question, and i'm glad you picked this up because it was cunningly placed there to ask these questions (I really do hope to realised that...): How can one have a master data source, and funnily enough I was having an excellent chat with @PhilNeal on just this topic. A view of the data is one thing, that is not connected as such to the master data source. However, where there are two sources that consider themselves to be the master data source (for instance, school is one, the social care department of the LA is another), you have to consider how can they work together. I'n my opinion (and @PhilNeal I am sure won't mind me saying broadly agrees with me here based on that conversation) they cannot by any technological means without an human interaction. I believe that the Data Exchange is not properly taking this into account, and actually schools & LAs, and more so the DfE, need to start thinking hard about this, lest the Data Exchange does not actually make any difference (or does, worse) to our lives.

 

I'm not sure where you got master data MODEL from, I refer to source of data. Therefore, I'm suggesting Data Exchange is trying to replace the vast collection numbers we currently have, and eventually to enable information that is shared currently by a multitude of means not just with DfE but other services internal and external of the school in a more convenient and joined up way, in a semi-automated fashion and in a timely manner. No none of this is new, but the way this is being done is new to the UK. Other countries such as states in the US and now in Australia are working down this path, but ultimately taking advantage of the technology that has been around for quite a while... finally. Because there is very little measure of success either way at such a grand scale, that does not mean it should not be done and we stick with this very manual census and CTF system we have had for what seems like ever. We do however need to proceed cautiously, ensuring the technology works, and ensure that schools and LAs, and the government, have the time to evolve at a pace they can work with! That is probably my biggest concern, and that takes me right back to the top where I consider if schools are ready for this. IT IS NOT A DIG AT SCHOOLS! I am saying that schools need (in a positive way) help to be brought into this new facility, and I'm not convinced there is now nor going to be that assistance.

@pcstru I'm happy to talk further, possibly offline and even a call if you want. I am very happy to explain & explore my opinions (!), but if you want to explore my competence to speak to this topic, can we please take that offline? Lets keep it professional because we always have good conversations on here otherwise you and I

 

To be honest... I'm just glad you read it!

Edited May 10, 2014 by GREED

[elsiegee40]

What does everyone think of SIMS? I'm looking at alternative systems and am wondering if other people have changed over to an alternative?

 

This was the original question posed by kinster. I think this thread is now heading way off topic. If it fails to come back in line, I shall consult with my fellow mods on closing it.

[GREED]

Elsiegee40 maybe split the thread off when the blog is mentioned? Edited May 10, 2014 by elsiegee40
posting name please

[pcstru]

This subthread moved Edited May 10, 2014 by pcstru
Moved to avoid the wrath of the mods

[GREED]

Nice one @pcstru

[matt40k]

As I recall SMAC wasn't what we would call an MIS, it was geared specifically to support special needs & the centralised statementing process. It was a long time ago though, so I could be misremembering. I think that was true for many LEA's, their internal own rolled systems were rather narrower than what we now think of as a MIS operating at school or LA level.

 

Agreed, at the time it was a MIS and the MIS has evolved since those days, so in todays turns, of comparing then and now, problem not, but that's like comparing DOS to Windows 8.1. I think we agree that a MIS isn't something something that could be created and left alone, it needs continued development and devops ideals seem to fit the bill. So in terms of selecting a new MIS, you need a product from someone who is active in development. Ideally using in-house developers who also support it (my logic being if they mess up, they'll feel the pain, rather then a outsource company who maybe more relaxed and see bugs as more money).

[jenny_urey]

LOL! - They are now replicating Groupcall to make their own teacher app, i don't know when it will tie in with Intouch to do the messaging, maybe it already does...?

 

 

You mean Capita is going to copy / takeover ASPEN ?

 

 

erm, has anyone said Bromcom yet? .. ..

 

seriously, what about DoubleFirst Engage , iSAMS, WCBS, Tribal, Scholarpack, RM, ACS, Plus4Schools, not to mention a simple Google search will find you 100s of online offerings. Those mentioned however, are probably the more popular.

 

 

I've seen that on a few online MIS providers' sites, but more for the sales part rather than the support.

 

(COUGH )

[CAM]

Plus this year we have the wonders of Planned Learning Hours and Planned Enrichment, Employability and Pastoral hours added into the mix.. For this year AND the previous year no less!!!

 

John

 

I still don't know what I am supposed to do with Core Learning Aims. :/

[GREED]

Try sitting in supplier meetings about the census on this topic then you will be confused!

[kinster]

Yes absolutely, wasn't saying you hadn't but an open source MIS has been talked about for a decade. The reason it hasn't happened is not just 'support'. It's the horrendous up front development costs and the incredibly entrenched market that mean most start ups would find lower hanging fruit elsewhere - and that's a shame!

 

Development costs? In what way? All I can see is finding time nowadays as dev tools are either free or low in cost.

[GREED]

And time is not worth anything? To do this in any realistic timescale this is full time work by several people. I go back MANY posts where I say about the cost of eating sleeping and living... cannot and should not be done in the middle of another job leaving either investment or a long long time to develop.

 

I'm actually flabbergasted you have said that.

[kinster]

And time is not worth anything? To do this in any realistic timescale this is full time work by several people. I go back MANY posts where I say about the cost of eating sleeping and living... cannot and should not be done in the middle of another job leaving either investment or a long long time to develop.

 

I'm actually flabbergasted you have said that.

 

You really think everyone lives the same and has to work to survive? Everyone is different.

 

As for development. Some people I know enjoy development, but then again developing an MIS might not be as riviting as writing the next "Twitter"

Edited May 12, 2014 by kinster
additional

[GREED]

You really think everyone lives the same and has to work to survive? Everyone is different.

 

As for development. Some people I know enjoy development, but then again developing an MIS might not be as riviting as writing the next "Twitter"

 

No but I know I do, and most do. What you suggest is that a wealthy individual who does not need to work to live takes this on?

 

If you have the quality skills to be able to do this well, the it is likely you are well sort after in a job already. In addition, simply being able to build the database and interface is one aspect, totally aside from knowing education data market inside out, having the links to get the up to data statutory information and regulations, and being able to connect to (or better, build you own) the very complex elements such as timetabling, exams management, messaging. Otherwise to be fair, it is very much a large, yet flat database.

 

Regardless of all that... it does cost to do this; time in any commercial world, which this fits, costs money. What about marketing? Sales force? Trainers? Support staff? Are they all going to come onto the non-existent payroll? Or would this project be the exclusive domain of the wealthy who don't have to work?

 

Another point and I know this happened before: How do you make money from this or is it free? If free to schools, would paid advertising creep in? And the big question to make all of this academic: Would a school take on a totally free MIS from a company that made no money, trust all this data where there is effectively no incentive to have the company stick to the terms of any contract. I'd actually like to see what the community thinks of that?

[kinster]

No but I know I do, and most do. What you suggest is that a wealthy individual who does not need to work to live takes this on?

 

If you have the quality skills to be able to do this well, the it is likely you are well sort after in a job already. In addition, simply being able to build the database and interface is one aspect, totally aside from knowing education data market inside out, having the links to get the up to data statutory information and regulations, and being able to connect to (or better, build you own) the very complex elements such as timetabling, exams management, messaging. Otherwise to be fair, it is very much a large, yet flat database.

 

Regardless of all that... it does cost to do this; time in any commercial world, which this fits, costs money. What about marketing? Sales force? Trainers? Support staff? Are they all going to come onto the non-existent payroll? Or would this project be the exclusive domain of the wealthy who don't have to work?

 

Another point and I know this happened before: How do you make money from this or is it free? If free to schools, would paid advertising creep in? And the big question to make all of this academic: Would a school take on a totally free MIS from a company that made no money, trust all this data where there is effectively no incentive to have the company stick to the terms of any contract. I'd actually like to see what the community thinks of that?

 

I agree with those points you make. My comment was in response to your message regarding "eating, sleeping, etc" and "when to do it".

[Bromcom_John]

I still don't know what I am supposed to do with Core Learning Aims. :/

 

Apologies if it's a bit off topic, but I hate to see something going unanswered when there "is" information out there.

 

This is an excerpt from the Census Tech spec.

 

This field must be used to identify the core aim within a vocational EFA funded study programme for students on roll from 1st August 2013 onwards (including those continuing from the 2012/13 academic year). As the autumn census collects learning aims taken in the previous and current academic year this will mean that a core aim should be returned for each year where a vocational EFA funded study programme is being followed.

 

If a student is following an academic programme a core aim does not need to be identified.

 

The core aim is the substantive learning aim being undertaken in a student’s programme of study. Please refer to the EFA funding documentation for further information about the core aim including definitions of academic and vocational provision.

 

it continues at greater length but I have edited to avoid TL: DR

 

You might also want to double check the documentation at DfE documentation but there isn't any Autumn 2014 documentation up there yet.

[GREED]

Ok No worries. But still, what are your suggestions, your thoughts @kinster?

[pcstru]

You really think everyone lives the same and has to work to survive? Everyone is different.

Sure, but you aren't looking at everyone. You need people with detail knowledge of the problem domain, excellent software development skills (not just an ability to code, but to code something that is usable by ordinary people) and of those few 'everyone's' remaining, you need someone who is willing to invest a few man years of time to build a system that is viable for the core schools MIS functions.

 

An interesting perspective on how difficult the problem actually is might be had from looking at the success of suppliers when they try taking their MIS products to other markets. They should be able to leverage their existing investment in terms of the codebase/system, few seem to manage it.

[Barcrest]

@kinster is your background CMS Systems?

[kinster]

@kinster is your background CMS Systems?

@Barcrest I have worked with CMS systems and have worked on NHS systems in the past such as the patient records. In my own opinion, I see this quite similar.

[GREED]

I really wish they were, there would be more scope for industry to invest and cross sell into this market... but it isn't

[kinster]

I really wish they were, there would be more scope for industry to invest and cross sell into this market... but it isn't

 

I meant development-wise and the red-tape.

[CAM]

Apologies if it's a bit off topic, but I hate to see something going unanswered when there "is" information out there.

 

This is an excerpt from the Census Tech spec.

 

This field must be used to identify the core aim within a vocational EFA funded study programme for students on roll from 1st August 2013 onwards (including those continuing from the 2012/13 academic year). As the autumn census collects learning aims taken in the previous and current academic year this will mean that a core aim should be returned for each year where a vocational EFA funded study programme is being followed.

 

If a student is following an academic programme a core aim does not need to be identified.

 

The core aim is the substantive learning aim being undertaken in a student’s programme of study. Please refer to the EFA funding documentation for further information about the core aim including definitions of academic and vocational provision.

 

it continues at greater length but I have edited to avoid TL: DR

 

You might also want to double check the documentation at DfE documentation but there isn't any Autumn 2014 documentation up there yet.

 

So it only affects the BTEC kids and we set it to their BTEC course?