Changing from SIMS

[scholarpack]

Oh okay, so you're from Scholarpack?

 

I think there's some confusion here. Matt40k was stating that ScholarPack used to be an open source project, which it did. We tried to enter the UK MIS market with an open source business model. It didn't work for various reasons. So we raised investment, got a lot more focussed, and took the project commercial around 3 years ago. Almost overnight, people took us seriously. We supply over 250 primary schools now and have ambitious growth targets. Have a look at these statistics, or these statistics if you're interested in the shape of the market, and where SIMS schools are going to/from.

 

What's the data migration like to Scholarpack? If I wanted to export from SIMS to Scholarpack?

 

85% of our schools come from SIMS. We're not supposed to talk much on here for advertising rules but thought I'd clear that up.

 

The discussion on whether an open source MIS can work is a pretty interesting one. I don't think the market was right for it in 2010 but that doesn't mean it won't be in the future.

 

By the way, the task of building an MIS that competes on the private sector marketplace is a herculean one. Ask any of the smaller providers. We've been there and done it. It's a mammoth undertaking. I'm not discouraging startups - by all means, go for it. But know what you're getting into.

Edited May 9, 2014 by elsiegee40

[GREED]

Some of us have been there done that in this market too Rich... I know the task just as you do!!

[scholarpack]

Yes absolutely, wasn't saying you hadn't but an open source MIS has been talked about for a decade. The reason it hasn't happened is not just 'support'. It's the horrendous up front development costs and the incredibly entrenched market that mean most start ups would find lower hanging fruit elsewhere - and that's a shame!

[GREED]

Yes absolutely, wasn't saying you hadn't but an open source MIS has been talked about for a decade. The reason it hasn't happened is not just 'support'. It's the horrendous up front development costs and the incredibly entrenched market that mean most start ups would find lower hanging fruit elsewhere - and that's a shame!

 

Of course I totally agree Rich. 100%

[elsiegee40]

Just a post to show I am keeping an eye on things and will edit if lines are crossed by non sponsors

[pcstru]

We looked at Scholarpack just as the model was changing. IMO it is difficult to mitigate the risks - sure you ultimately have access to the source code, but even the task of keeping up with 'statutory' requirements is extremely demanding. It is probably right that it is a risk too far for schools. In our selection process, there has been a lot of discussion around the relative security of a large supplier vs the continuing viability of some of the smaller players. I think it is right that kind of risk is a consideration but at the same time, it would be a shame if it tipped the balance against otherwise good software.

 

I doubt it is realistic for anyone to start from scratch and build an MIS system for schools which will get much traction - closed or open source. What I think is more likely is that companies who are getting into niche requirements - the SISRA's or KeepKidsSafe will expand a little more and then a little more and in a few years they will be bigger players until eventually they offer enough that they are considered a fully capable MIS in and of themselves. Evolution, not revolution.

[GREED]

Or... what is likely is an application that houses several disparate systems but brings them together under one interface, connecting the data so it appears to be a single system....

 

Some thoughts for you all before the Weekend

[GREED]

Just a post to show I am keeping an eye on things and will edit if lines are crossed by non sponsors

 

Ooooo ta elsiegee40 you stalker have lines been crossed?

Edited May 10, 2014 by elsiegee40
posting name please

[elsiegee40]

Very slightly

[GREED]

Very slightly

 

Who and where?

[pcstru]

Just a post to show I am keeping an eye on things and will edit if lines are crossed by non sponsors

Even little 'ol folks like me who work for schools are 'non-sponsors'. I hope I'm not even approaching any lines!

[elsiegee40]

No comment

[matt40k]

We all have to remember that doing census will be disappearing in 3 years anyway when the DfE Data Exchange comes online and is sucking our data directly and more regularly...

 

Don't forget @GREED and @JohnCondon it's elections next year, nothing kills a public project then a new leader - looks at the chair with the words "Reserved for Becta".

[GREED]

Don't forget @GREED and @JohnCondon it's elections next year, nothing kills a public project then a new leader - looks at the chair with the words "Reserved for Becta".

 

Oh too true Matt... but what can you do as a supplier you have to plan on it still

[scholarpack]

We looked at Scholarpack just as the model was changing. IMO it is difficult to mitigate the risks - sure you ultimately have access to the source code, but even the task of keeping up with 'statutory' requirements is extremely demanding. It is probably right that it is a risk too far for schools. In our selection process, there has been a lot of discussion around the relative security of a large supplier vs the continuing viability of some of the smaller players. I think it is right that kind of risk is a consideration but at the same time, it would be a shame if it tipped the balance against otherwise good software.

 

This is part of the problem open source attempts have come up against. Schools aren't willing to take the risk on a tiny, untested provider with no track record even though they usually have the same or similar legal obligations as the larger suppliers with regards to data protection, data security and so on. And open Source just isn't perceived as secure or corporate enough for the edutech sector. I don't believe there are actually any Open Source MIS packages that UK schools can actually use as of 2014.

 

Coming through this 'entering the market' process is painstakingly slow for newer suppliers, open source or otherwise, hence why there are about 4 of us in the last decade who have actually made a dent in the state sector, and many that have come and gone in that period too!

[pcstru]

We all have to remember that doing census will be disappearing in 3 years anyway when the DfE Data Exchange comes online and is sucking our data directly and more regularly...

Data Exchange, as in your article - "The Data Landscape is Changing - Are we ready for it"? This kind of thing has been talked about for years.

 

I'm not a betting man but I will bet it fizzles and dies because, if the article is anything to go by, someone really doesn't understand the problem. The last few paragraphs of that article are IMO laughable, also quite insulting to schools!

 

The biggest reason the schools census 'works' is because school funding is predicated on the submission. That's the key motivation for the schools to do the work and the key reasons the data quality can be relied on in terms of the broad brush stuff - pupil numbers. What motivation is there for them to feed everyone else quality 'master' data? Is there even such a thing as 'master' data in some kind of absolute sense? It might seem an odd concept, but there might be more than one truth out there. So for instance, A child's surname might be different for a given context even in the same moment, they are known to one school as X but known to social services as Y. Or schools might just record something about a child almost as a place holder - "Will bring address tomorrow" might appear in the school systems address - should that overwrite the DFE information, which having beeg sourced from the feeder primary is at that moment, 'better quality'? Many of the problems are not easily solved with automation and having been generally given more autonomy over the last decade, why do you think schools will generally put effort into arbitrary data quality standards where it is not absolutely central to their operations?

[pcstru]

This is part of the problem open source attempts have come up against. Schools aren't willing to take the risk on a tiny, untested provider with no track record even though they usually have the same or similar legal obligations as the larger suppliers with regards to data protection, data security and so on.

It's not that, it is Business Continuity - what do we do when when you go under a week before the delivery of this years Census and the software breaks?

And open Source just isn't perceived as secure or corporate enough for the edutech sector.

Then why are my web servers Apache? Why are people using Moodle? The problem isn't the perception of "open source" or that open source can't work. The problem is perhaps the problem space itself; an MIS for an English Secondary school is quite a particular thing. It is misleading that it has to be generic enough to work in schools - any implementation will be specific to the School and the cost of implementation will likely be higher than the initial purchase. It's pretty specific, so your access to development is minimised and the minimum you need to bring to the party to play would require a substantial development resource.

 

Coming through this 'entering the market' process is painstakingly slow for newer suppliers, open source or otherwise, hence why there are about 4 of us in the last decade who have actually made a dent in the state sector, and many that have come and gone in that period too!

 

And nothing much has changed in terms of the solutions that are offered. No really big ideas.

[GREED]

Data Exchange, as in your article - "The Data Landscape is Changing - Are we ready for it"? This kind of thing has been talked about for years.

 

I'm not a betting man but I will bet it fizzles and dies because, if the article is anything to go by, someone really doesn't understand the problem. The last few paragraphs of that article are IMO laughable, also quite insulting to schools!

 

Well... Thank you... not sure how to respond to that. Given I worked within the project for months (not to mention the time put to writing the article).

 

Are you suggesting I don't understand the problem?

 

I respect these are your opinions, might not respect your saying the thing is laughable....

[scholarpack]

It's not that, it is Business Continuity - what do we do when when you go under a week before the delivery of this years Census and the software breaks?

 

Sure, that's the risk I'm talking about.

 

 

Then why are my web servers Apache? Why are people using Moodle? The problem isn't the perception of "open source" or that open source can't work. The problem is perhaps the problem space itself; an MIS for an English Secondary school is quite a particular thing. It is misleading that it has to be generic enough to work in schools - any implementation will be specific to the School and the cost of implementation will likely be higher than the initial purchase. It's pretty specific, so your access to development is minimised and the minimum you need to bring to the party to play would require a substantial development resource.

 

Of course there is a multitude of highly important, even fundamental, open source software on the web like Apache etc but it's an entirely different market over in MIS land. Moodle might work, but VLEs aren't considered mission critical/funding dependent, so plenty of people will take a punt on those. You're right about the market's specific requirements and that's perhaps why open source is not a great fit. Generally, if the development requirements are large, it works better in software with huge possible userbases.

 

And nothing much has changed in terms of the solutions that are offered. No really big ideas.

 

Interested to hear what you'd consider a big idea.

[pcstru]

Well... Thank you... not sure how to respond to that. Given I worked within the project for months (not to mention the time put to writing the article).

 

Are you suggesting I don't understand the problem?

In your article is sometimes a little difficult to distill reason from the rhetoric...

 

"Because actually the school has not entered some compulsory or legislative information about the new intake yet (often waiting for the week before the census is due to do that little chore)."

 

It's things like "little chore" that start to set a particular tone. Any information stored by a school about a data subject is available, by law, to that data subject on request. So

 

"Too often in current and previous occupations have I heard stories about not allowing certain data areas or past records to be even opened up to parents, students or others."

 

Is misleading. Schools want to send parents and students meaningful, quality data. We don't 'withhold' any data - we can't by law. But we don't send raw CBDS XML to parents either, tempting as it might be! We try and maximise the quality of the INFORMATION that is available to parents, not the quantity of arbitrary data. Data is very much a product used IN a process, it is not the end in and of itself.

 

"Another angle for this staunch protectionism"

 

"Staunch protectionism" is rhetoric. Of what exactly - data they need to do their job? I guess they would be protective of that!

 

"Data Exchange will be taking into account the apparent ‘mastery of data’; what is the master data source."

 

What if there is no master? What if different people need a particular view of data and what if the priorities of those people don't align? What actual question was this 'master data model' meant to solve and is that solution actually applicable to any other question? Is any of this new? What data sharing has been tried before? How successful was it and if the benefits of data are so desirable, why haven't those previous attempts taken over the world?

 

I respect these are your opinions, might not respect your saying the thing is laughable....

 

Rest assured, I always respect disrespect.

Edited May 9, 2014 by pcstru

[pcstru]

Interested to hear what you'd consider a big idea.

OK. I'll swap for next weeks lottery numbers.

 

I have some vague notion of moving on from the structured, relational model - moving the problem up from "how do I record a representation of the world in schema" to "how do I impose schema on the world when I want to ask it a question with some (dynamic/arbitrary) consistency".

[matt40k]

Difference between Moodle and any attempt thus far of a open-source UK focused MIS system is Moodle has the backing of universities who have the resources to develop and maintain the systems. Maintain is the key, years ago, before SIMS every LA had a designed their own MIS system, in Suffolk it was called SMAC, but when the time came for a rewrite in C, they didn't want to invest. If you look around, quite a few good ideas have been developed over the years, but the bit where they fall down is the maintenance. Before any code is written you almost need a large community to commit to funding it for a set number of years, document the requirements, then start building something. Perhaps even accept it will only replace one aspect of the MIS system at first then build upon it.

 

With regards to @pcstru points about the data exchange, he is views will be polar, your got the almost day-to-day guy going up against the visionary, between the two you'll get what will actually happen. I think what is important @GREED is that the census is generally a clean up session, the tasks you often put off get done at once, some things, like data collection sheets that need to be manually entered won't get entered until closer to the census - it's unlikely your need to enter a pupil ethnicity on the first day of term - home address however I would say is critical, as is name (legal birth certificate AND known as). Long term the barriers of data re-enter will disappear, how long, who knows. I theory, you apply for a school place, the school gets all the details from day one when you fill in the form. The other aspect of the census is it gives you a overview that isn't normally seen. Seeing the odd day absence might seem ok, but when the cold hard summary comes in, it could be pretty shocking, which kinda leads me onto...

 

Interested to hear what you'd consider a big idea.

 

I would say 10 years ago Bromcom and their introduction of electronic registers was a big idea, not much else has really happened, personally, big data is the next big thing. I've been looking at Arbor and how they mash up those lovely extracts the DfE produce from all those returns schools do and give them a overview of the your school vs similar vs all schools. I think, this is the way forward.

 

EDIT:

 

Durr, the internet, how did I forget that little beauty - with all it's cloudy, virtualy goodness.

Edited May 9, 2014 by matt40k

[GREED]

In your article is sometimes a little difficult to distill reason from the rhetoric...

 

"Because actually the school has not entered some compulsory or legislative information about the new intake yet (often waiting for the week before the census is due to do that little chore)."

 

It's things like "little chore" that start to set a particular tone. Any information stored by a school about a data subject is available, by law, to that data subject on request. So

 

"Too often in current and previous occupations have I heard stories about not allowing certain data areas or past records to be even opened up to parents, students or others."

 

Is misleading. Schools want to send parents and students meaningful, quality data. We don't 'withhold' any data - we can't by law. But we don't send raw CBDS XML to parents either, tempting as it might be! We try and maximise the quality of the INFORMATION that is available to parents, not the quantity of arbitrary data. Data is very much a product used IN a process, it is not the end in and of itself.

 

"Another angle for this staunch protectionism"

 

"Staunch protectionism" is rhetoric. Of what exactly - data they need to do their job? I guess they would be protective of that!

 

"Data Exchange will be taking into account the apparent ‘mastery of data’; what is the master data source."

 

What if there is no master? What if different people need a particular view of data and what if the priorities of those people don't align? What actual question was this 'master data model' meant to solve and is that solution actually applicable to any other question? Is any of this new? What data sharing has been tried before? How successful was it and if the benefits of data are so desirable, why haven't those previous attempts taken over the world?

 

 

 

Rest assured, I always respect disrespect.

 

I will respond to each of your points in full tomorrow... but I just wanted to say that I do respect the opinion of someone on the ground. I have offered an opinion based on year of experience on both sides of the fence and working inside DFE towers. Your opinion is equally valid Matt makes an excellent point about our viewpoints. But my reaction is to your push one step into saying my opinion is wrong (laughable), rather than a different viewpoint. Your opinions are from your daily life and there are aspects you have mentioned that in my mind are while the way things are, not how they should be and just because x schools does it x way, doesn't mean it is the right way! Or rather the best way.

 

Quickly on protectionism too, if you read the article properly by that I refer to how protective school heads are about legitimate others having access to the data because of the way the school is perceived as a result.

 

More after sleep :-)

[pcstru]

With regards to @pcstru points about the data exchange, he is views will be polar, your got the almost day-to-day guy going up against the visionary, between the two you'll get what will actually happen.

I can only feel sorry for the "almost day to day guy".

Edited May 10, 2014 by pcstru

[penfold_99]

@pcstru just to clarify your point "we don't withhold any data - we can't by law", actually you can, there are provisions under other laws which allow for information to be withheld, mainly if the release of information would put the child at risk.