ok, here we go, we need macs.......... oooeeerrrr

[russdev]

Please use one of many 100000000 of threads on mac vrs pc. Lets stick with what op wanted which is advice on buying mac's.

 

Russell

[localzuk]

Oh, and my advice would be to go with a suite of iMac's and get an xserve.

 

It may seem like a bit of a big expense now, but the likelyhood will be that more computers will slowly but surely be added on, and the capacity of the xserve would be used better then.

[Joedetic]

Without deviating from the topic too much, but just for a second. This is a classic example of what i generalise and call "distro-wars." I suppose it extends to mac vs PC aswell. Basically ignore everyone else's personal opinions and use what suits you and your situation best. (Even if it's what the music dept. are forcing on you )

 

Now...if the music teacher wants macs then you could try asking them to contact other music teachers in other schools that use macs to get them to maybe arrange a quick visit to see the setup, how it's layed out etc or send across some specs and maybe some basic costing and suppliers?

 

I'm not a mac user so I can't really say what specs you'd need or whether you'd need an xserve or not...but thinking about the midi aspect as has already been mentioned, is important.

 

Quick google came accross http://www.engadget.com/2005/02/08/how-to-turn-your-mac-mini-into-a-low-cost-recording-studio/

 

Maybe useful? I don't know.

[mattx]

Atari STs are better than Macs....Oooppps - sorry. :-)

[DMcCoy]

It always amazes me how many people will talk about things they have ZERO knowledge about.

 

You CANNOT get low latency without a real soundcard.

 

Because?

 

Aren't they both just buses?

 

 

Like i said

 

"It amazes me how many people will talk about things they have ZERO knowledge about"

 

 

By your logic integrated GFX cards are just as good as £x000 beasts right?

Or why pay hunderds of pounds for a SCSI HD when a cheapo IDE one will do just as good.

 

I'm still missing the reason though, integrated graphic can be fine for most purposes for example. You can get low latency firewire external sound cards, we use them here. They work.

 

Please do not imply that I am a complete idiot, I did manage a 2:1 in computer science, so fundamentally they are both buses. A PCI(e) device may have to wait for another device on the bus to free the channel. Firewire can be isynchronous and can guarantee latency. And you can move them!

 

Bandwidth is where PCIe will be a winner of course.

 

Back to the because?

[webman]

We do not need the same level of quality in school's as a professional studio

 

So we don't need macs then?

[localzuk]

There is a difference between reducing your spend a bit and avoiding a system altogether. Providing macs will open up an entirely new computing experience to kids. It will open up access to Garageband etc...

 

Sure you can get PC software for it, but it will simply not provide the basic level that would be best for them.

 

We should be looking at providing the best solution for teaching and learning - and for music, this is via Mac's.

[Scotmk]

Please use one of many 100000000 of threads on mac vrs pc. Lets stick with what op wanted which is advice on buying mac's.

 

Russell

 

I think I have opened a can here. sry!

 

Did I mention that we already have a music class with 15 PC's working fine with keyboards, software etc. so not sure why the change.

 

Also, like to point out that ok, I don't like Macs that much, but I have used them and support them at my Wifes company and I know that they are more than capable, its just that why did we need to change to them, when we have a working system and all we wanted to do was add more and incorporate them to our studio. It's going to make more work to get these all working/intergrated, that was my beef anyways.

 

lol, but thanks for you suggestions, keep em coming.

[Guest Guest]

Feck me, if you have absolutely no idea what your talking about, which alot of people on here obviously dont, why try and knock the FACT that real soundcards are better than integrated ones.

 

Who said anything about quality? I didnt, i was talking about latency. And if you had ANY idea about how to make and use music you would know that latency is far more important than quality (to start with as you can always a mix down on a good quality one later, you cant work on a high latency soundcard, it just doesnt work)

 

And who started the mac vs PC? Again, i didnt. All i stated was that i disagreed with someones statement that learning mac will put you in good sted to work in a studio.

 

 

Like ive said twice now, if you dont know what your talking about... Go do some research if you dont believe me. Im not sitting here and explaining the ins and outs of why. Next time you buy a GFX card for games are you going to ask the ins an outs of why its better to have a real one? No you most likely arnt are you, so why question a similar situation on soundcards.

 

 

And obviously a 2:1 in computer science doesnt include a module on reading what is written and not inventing stories from thin air. Where exactly did i say anything about buses? I was talking about real soundcards and integrated ones, not PCI, USB, Firewire etc. You can still have a crap Firewire soundcard.

 

 

Oh and i think you'll find that the home studio in my bedroom will be far better than a studio in a university thanks. And since one of our mates OWNS a record label... but no you dont want to know about that, you want personal experiances... oh wait

[Joedetic]

"Oh and i think you'll find that the home studio in my bedroom will be far better than a studio in a university thanks."

 

That's a VERY bold claim.........what's your sound proofing like?

[Guest Guest]

Its not a recording "real" instrument/vocals studio, its a production studio so no need for it thanks

 

BTW i wasnt talking overall as obviously the uni will have more due to shear volume of users. But on a per computer basis...

 

Beside i dont even know why i said that as its got sweet FA to do with anything as all you need to produce music is a computer and a soundcard, you dont even need a keyboard

[Rozzer]

We have a Macpro and that looks quite nice in our server raq We also can do link aggregated gigabyte We have 80 machines setup her and does the trick

 

It may look good (although I'm dubious as to how good it actually looks if you can't lay it on it's side - surely it doesn't fit a 19" rack when layed on it's side)..but a MacPro in a 19 inch rack does absolutely nothing for front-to-back airflow in your rack which is an issue even if you're using comfort cooling - plus how many U's are you wasting by having a MacPro ? when you could have several Xserve's occupying the same space, the MacPro is performance wise equivalent to the xserve with increased expansion slots and greater internal storage - and it's a good choice for a server but the MacPro is a very different kettle of fish to a mac mini as a 'server'

 

We had quite a bit of space in our raq. Plus its quite happy in the small room with a very big air conditioning unit. If we had the money for the xserve and i was involved int he discussions we would of bought one

 

Ross

[localzuk]

j17sparky - you are possibly the rudest person I have come across on this site, why do you need to be so combative??

 

You are stating, as fact, that onboard sound cards are high latency - which is simply not the case with Mac onboard equipment. It is not the case for most brands of onboard soundcard either. Many now have their own processors so as to not need the CPU (which compares with ones of old which relied on the CPU and therefore suffered with latency problems). An example, the one in my iMac is of high enough quality to have a low latency for music purposes, and ones (the same model) have been used for just that. However, yes, high quality sound cards do have advantages in some aspects, but latency is not one of them with new mac's. It is not one with many new PC's either.

 

Your comparison to graphics cards is a red herring. A graphics card that is onboard has its own processor (but shares memory in most cases). There is no 'latency' issue - so sound is unique in this aspect.

[localzuk]

"Oh and i think you'll find that the home studio in my bedroom will be far better than a studio in a university thanks."

 

That's a VERY bold claim.........what's your sound proofing like?

 

And considering they spent £2.5m quid on the 3 studio's I seriously doubt it!

[Guest Guest]

^ Best phone RME up then and tell them they'll be going out of bussiness.

 

 

The reason i got annoyed (barrring im feeling rather ill today) is like i said, why talk about something you clearly have no clue about? If you are just guessing what is the point in the forum? I could have a stab in the dark at anythhing, doesnt mean its right. People come on here for *good* advice, stabs in the dark based on assumtions is not good advice.

 

 

Oh and thanks, atleast im the best at something

[localzuk]

Thats the thing - I am not taking wild stabs in the dark. You have no idea about my background, I have none about yours. Stories about 'friends' and 'friends stuff' are useless at best.

 

I have made my point about sound cards in modern computers, having dealt with the issue *in a school* and *in a university* (note they are both educational establishments, and this is about a school wanting something similar), and another user has pointed out his experience with a USB keyboard - your response has simply been to tell them that they need their ears testing and that I know nothing. All it makes me think is to ignore your comments as near enough trolling...

[Geoff]

Rule #1 (at least, for me): If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

If the sound of what you have is good, use it and don't worry about whether it could be better. Adding cards, killing existing audio, resolving interrupts and the like are worthwhile if the sound is not satisfactory for your purpose, but if it is good enough, use it. Check for the noise floor of the card and see if you can pick up any persistent tones with spectrum analysis. Check the real dynamic range as well. Do all that visually with .

[Guest Guest]

So wait there, sorry, your £2.5m studios didnt include real soundcards?

 

I have heard and experianced integrated soundcards. I managed to get one down to 20 odd ms (which is rather good) but for live music and production it is simply not good enough.

 

When you record what is the most important things? Hitting the correct keys and hitting them in time to the music? Yes? So for the sake of £50 (ie far less than the price differance between pc and mac ) why disadvantage the kids by forcing them to use an integrated soundcard?

Plus non-integrated soundcards suffer from interfearance and looping issues far less.

[Joedetic]

Can i maybe just point out here that this isn't for industry grade production.

 

So "for the sake of 50 quid" on every machine....that's what...(i cant remember how many machines he wants)...another box or another midi keyboard or two?

 

This is education after all.

[Domino]

[quote name="j17sparky"

Macs arnt always industry standard in the music world. Infact the poeple i know in the music world dont like macs. And tbh whats that got to do with anything anyway?

[/quote]

 

er...my first studio experience was at the world renowned parkgate studios up the road from me where i had a summer job or three - all Mac

 

I then played in various bands since and am now getting ready to record with another, to date I've recorded 5 EPs and a album witha band of my own - All bar one of the places we recorded used macs (and i have it say it came out very well, but it was a lot more work)

 

I've also done various Session Musician jobs as a little sideline over the past couple of years and every studio I've been in has a mac as their main machine.

 

....you were saying..?

[DMcCoy]

Ok, some humble apologies on my side. I missed one of your posts out and only read the one about "real cards", which as it was the *previous* post that mentioned usb/firewire etc. I assumed you meant PCI/PCIe cards and not externals.

 

The internal card is ok for playback, for more serious work we use some Firewire cards - you will need a few with macs for sensible input options.

[Guest Guest]

Oh well, im wrong, i dont know people who actually make a living soley from music, onboard soundcards are the way forward watch out RME, garageband is the bees nees watch out logic...

 

God im soo good at making things up

 

 

Differance is, i KNOW im right

 

 

 

Sorry to all thats read this, but it seems to be a growwing trend on here that people speak without thinking or knowing what they are talking about. I though we were edugeek.net, a place to find out the facts and best ways of doing things. Not the Sun.com where hearsay and flawed logic is commonplace.

Oh well, seems im having a rather bad day today.

 

If people actually read my first posts you will see that i was actually trying to help. I didnt knock macs, which took some rather hard biting of the tongue. The comment about the music teacher probably did read rather harsh, it wasnt ment to read like that, more jokey. But my point still stands, onboard soundcards have latency, if a music teacher cant hear this... infact all soundcards have some latency. To say an onboard soundcard has NO latency is just not true - fact - simple as that really.

[webman]

So if we aren't doing "industry grade" production then why waste money on so-called "industry grade" macs when you can get double the amount of PCs for the same price to do the same job?

[Domino]

hmmmm, i think you need to take a moment to think about politeness

 

This was a question about an educational establishment, and they want to know what they can do cost-effectively.

 

You've done nothing but berate people and tell them you're wrong.

 

provide a reasoned point of view, and listen to other people's version as well - surely thats the spirit of this forum

 

I'm pretty sure his post wasn't titled " i want to set up a studio to rival abbey road"

 

and i assume you've tried recording on one of the new iMacs then, as you claim to know it all.

[localzuk]

So wait there, sorry, your £2.5m studios didnt include real soundcards?

 

I have heard and experianced integrated soundcards. I managed to get one down to 20 odd ms (which is rather good) but for live music and production it is simply not good enough.

 

When you record what is the most important things? Hitting the correct keys and hitting them in time to the music? Yes? So for the sake of £50 (ie far less than the price differance between pc and mac ) why disadvantage the kids by forcing them to use an integrated soundcard?

Plus non-integrated soundcards suffer from interfearance and looping issues far less.

 

No, the school contained onboard sound cards. The uni had mac's was my point.