Gov proposes 60mph motorway speed limit

[localzuk]

CO2 isn't the main pollution being targeted I think. They're more focussed on particulates and NO2, as these are damaging to local health.

[foofighterjim]

How inflated are the manufacturers output figures? How well are the cars maintained? How old are the cars? What percentage are petrol to diesel?

 

Not picking at your response, just at the very nature of the argument. Banning cars/lorries over 10 years old may go down like a house on fire but would significantly cut pollution and probably reduce the accident rate.

 

Its not necessarily the cars that cause the problem, its the way people drive. Not accelerating harshly and reading the road as to not use the breaks where possible saves an enormous amount of energy / fuel / pollution. One of the main problems is drivers not keeping a good distance whilst on a motorway; I know it is impossible to do. As soon as you open a 2 second gap there will be someone else jumping into it. Although better that most countries; our collective driving standards leave much to be desired.

[MatthewL]

Joys I look forward to it, I stopped using the M62 and between J32-35 started going that way because it was quicker due to the managed motorway bits. Rest of it I use when going down south, maybe time to start using the A1.

[john]

I wish that I could reach 60mph on the M6 around Birmingham...

 

If you use the M6 Toll you can reach that and more on top of it £5.50 well spent every time I go back to the north and back to London

 

As for managed motorways they do seem to work in my use of the M6, 1 and 25 all of which have them on in sections it makes a difference you do keep moving rather than stopping, however the number of people that don't understand that the 50 in a round circle AKA the managed lower speedlimit (or other number) is the new limit not 70 and then proceed to pip horns etc when people are doing it is worrying.

Edited January 6, 2014 by john

[sted]

 

Or, you know, they're doing it for the reason they say - to reduce pollution. Reducing speed by 10km/h would reduce emissions by up to 12-18% according to an EU study a while back (if people follow the speed limit!).

 

So, it could be well worth it to the communities near the stretch of road.

 

 

 

How would this cause any issue? None of you can go above 60, so it won't be *causing* congestion.

 

for a lot of that stretch there is naff all for mile around bar wind turbines and meadowhall

 

Joys I look forward to it, I stopped using the M62 and between J32-35 started going that way because it was quicker due to the managed motorway bits. Rest of it I use when going down south, maybe time to start using the A1.

 

i find now its done the m62 is much better between 29 and 33 at busy times though why its 60 then 50 then 40 from 29 to 30 at 8pm i have no idea

[Martin]

One of the stated aims is to reduce pollution. Any car travelling on a road will be subject to the physics of drag, which increases with square of the speed (irrespective of any other factor), which means that a car travelling at 120km/h will experience 45% more drag. In modern cars that seems to translate to around 20% more fuel.

 

(Also in any accident, the kinetic energy varies as the square of the speed so with that little ~20km/h you carry 45% more energy into any accident).

 

...hey, let's take this further, to an extreme even?

 

Make all vehicles travel at 4mph - that'll sort out the emissions and crash energies straight away. Oh, and we can reduce unemployment to zero by giving jobs to all those red flag carriers

 

If only,

 

mb

[localzuk]

...hey, let's take this further, to an extreme even?

 

Make all vehicles travel at 4mph - that'll sort out the emissions and crash energies straight away. Oh, and we can reduce unemployment to zero by giving jobs to all those red flag carriers

 

If only,

 

mb

 

May I direct you to - Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia?

 

The government's suggestion is entirely sensible and in line with current research. Whereas your suggestion is just absurd.

[d0pefish]

Just as an update, the local (Derbyshire) radio said today the aims were to cut pollution AND ease congestion. So it will only be a matter of time until "to reduce traffic incidents" is tagged on too. I don't really mind if it's any of the above, but if you're going to announce "we're doing it to cut pollution" then tag others on, it smacks of "ah, pollution excuse isn't going down well, say congestion too.....and if that doesn't work tell them it'll cut down the number of paedophiles on the road....something will win them round"

 

Also as someone else pointed out, for the most part of the proposed stretch, there aren't houses in the vicinity. I live closer to the M1 at J25 than most houses are at J28. So again, fair enough using the cut pollution cause, but that cleaner air is going to be mixing with far more polluted air before ever getting close to anyone!

[CAM]

You cannot use people who break laws as a reason to change the laws! Otherwise, what's the point of a law? Just because people drive badly, and use the lanes incorrectly doesn't mean the law should be changed to allow it. It means the police need to crack down and prosecute those muppets.

 

 

 

And the police should have been out in force to deal with those who were speeding.

 

If you build a system around everyone following the rules then it will fail. It is a nice fantasy world of everyone doing the limit but then reality swerves into your lane and slams the brakes on hard. If the Police prosecuted everyone for ever doing 71MPH on any stretch of motorway they'd be so bogged down with convictions that they'd get nothing done.

 

Enforcement needs to be concentrated on areas where safety is a top concern such as roadworks where a lower 50MPH speed limit means something. Not setting limits so a bird miles away doesn't fall off it's perch dead because it breathed in a few more grams of car fumes (because you know the only way that 60 limit will be enforced is with surveillance).

[localzuk]

If you build a system around everyone following the rules then it will fail. It is a nice fantasy world of everyone doing the limit but then reality swerves into your lane and slams the brakes on hard. If the Police prosecuted everyone for ever doing 71MPH on any stretch of motorway they'd be so bogged down with convictions that they'd get nothing done.

 

Enforcement needs to be concentrated on areas where safety is a top concern such as roadworks where a lower 50MPH speed limit means something. Not setting limits so a bird miles away doesn't fall off it's perch dead because it breathed in a few more grams of car fumes (because you know the only way that 60 limit will be enforced is with surveillance).

 

That's an absurd argument. Why bother having rules and laws if you just don't pay any attention to them?

 

I don't think I could disagree with a sentiment any more than I do this one. If the law states 70MPH, then the police should be prosecuting those going above those speeds - simple as that. The whole point of the criminal justice system is to prosecute people, which then discourages others from committing the same crime.

 

If the punishment for breaking that law is so weak that people don't really care, then it needs hardening not softening by ignoring it!!

[d0pefish]

As an addition to this, I had to drive this exact stretch of M1 over the holidays to a wedding in Sheffield. SatNav took me on to the M1 then when I got near J28 it said it was calculating a new route and took me somewhere else to avoid the 50mph roadworks in effect there.

 

Having a permanent 60mph limit there will mean a lot of SatNavs (if updated) will probably calculate a route up to J28 then take you through more built up areas where traffic could be a bit quieter. So potentially having an adverse effect on pollution and congestion

[sparkeh]

As an addition to this, I had to drive this exact stretch of M1 over the holidays to a wedding in Sheffield. SatNav took me on to the M1 then when I got near J28 it said it was calculating a new route and took me somewhere else to avoid the 50mph roadworks in effect there.

 

Having a permanent 60mph limit there will mean a lot of SatNavs (if updated) will probably calculate a route up to J28 then take you through more built up areas where traffic could be a bit quieter. So potentially having an adverse effect on pollution and congestion

I doubt it. Surely your satnav rerouted you as they were roadworks and reported to and recorded by whatever organisation your satnav gets it info from.

A slower speed limit will just mean your satnav will tell you that the speed limit is 60 rather than 70.

[d0pefish]

I doubt it. Surely your satnav rerouted you as they were roadworks and reported to and recorded by whatever organisation your satnav gets it info from.

A slower speed limit will just mean your satnav will tell you that the speed limit is 60 rather than 70.

 

that all depends, it routed me to dual carriageways where i could drive at 70. so it could take me away from 60mph motorways to the 70mph dual carriageways close by and i'm travelling quicker.

[jinnantonnixx]

The stretch is 32 miles long. The additional time to cover that distance at 60mph rather than 70mph is an extra four and a half minutes, assuming you are able to achieve a steady 60/70mph respectively.

 

In practice, you'll probably find that the travel time will be quicker with a 60mph limit than a 70mph limit, at busy times. To find out why, research the cause of phantom traffic jams.

 

Yes, it's counter-intuitive, but some things are.

 

As an indirect effect, speed limits reduce the frequency of lane changes. The majority of discretionary lane changes are no longer made since most of them are no longer associated with a significant incentive. Furthermore, the perturbations resulting from the remaining discretionary and the mandatory lane changes are weaker since fewer acceleration/braking actions are necessary to change lanes. This means speed limits help prevent or delay traffic breakdowns by reducing the traffic jam factor ©: Perturbations in the flow itself.

Traffic Flow Dynamics: Data, Models and Simulation (Kesting, Arne)

Edited January 7, 2014 by jinnantonnixx

[abillybob]

I think they should think about what that newly built Arab city is doing (forgotten the name of the place) where they have free automated electric taxis underground ferrying everyone around to work etc and above at ground level is strictly for pedestrians. I read somewhere there was a talk a few years back of something like this where you'd have HGV, vans etc on a road beneath and all domestic like cars on top therefore stopping as much congestion. Though this idea was scrapped for some reason.

 

Just Google these I'm sure you'd find them. What makes me angry is that when I went to buy an electric car you need o pay £80 a month to the car manufacturer to rent the batteries and on top of that you have to charge them up including the extortionate price of the electric cars in the first place and you will find it's cheaper to get yourself a 2 litre petrol car over a 6 year period before you make any money back on the electric one!!

 

I know this has no relevance to the M1 speed change all I'm saying is if the government wanted to do something about emissions subsidising the electric car batteries etc would be a much better way they just like the speeding tickets as far as im concerned!

Edited January 7, 2014 by abillybob

[d0pefish]

I think they should think about what that newly built Arab city is doing (forgotten the name of the place) where they have free automated electric taxis underground ferrying everyone around to work etc and above at ground level is strictly for pedestrians. I read somewhere there was a talk a few years back of something like this where you'd have HGV, vans etc on a road beneath and all domestic like cars on top therefore stopping as much congestion. Though this idea was scrapped for some reason.

 

Just Google these I'm sure you'd find them. What makes me angry is that when I went to buy an electric car you need o pay £80 a month to the car manufacturer to rent the batteries and on top of that you have to charge them up including the extortionate price of the electric cars in the first place and you will find it's cheaper to get yourself a 2 litre petrol car over a 6 year period before you make any money back on the electric one!!

 

I know this has no relevance to the M1 speed change all I'm saying is if the government wanted to do something about emissions subsidising the electric car batteries etc would be a much better way they just like the speeding tickets as far as im concerned!

 

I believe Milton Keynes are going to be trialling autonomous electric "pods" soon

[GREED]

There are a few ideas floating round such as convoys where lorries drive with long convoys behind of cars controlled wirelessly cutting speed and in theory accidents and congestion.

 

Also is Googles automated car, and predicted for the future is people will not own cars but rather just order a car much like a taxi and will take you wherever. Cross between a taxi and a hire car.

[SpuffMonkey]

There are a few ideas floating round such as convoys where lorries drive with long convoys behind of cars controlled wirelessly cutting speed and in theory accidents and congestion.

 

Sounds almost like some strange thing I saw once called "a train"

[Greenbeast]

Sounds almost like some strange thing I saw once called "a train"

 

but trains don't go where roads do....

[Hefferzzzz]

but trains don't go where roads do....

 

Most towns and cities have train stations though. Use smaller local lorries to deliver from there?

[tmcd35]

but trains don't go where roads do....

 

"Where we're going we don't need roads" - Doc. Brown 1985

[CAM]

Most towns and cities have train stations though. Use smaller local lorries to deliver from there?

 

Doesn't work anymore. Virtually all stations had their goods yards and other depot facilities ripped out and timetables are too tight to block a passenger platform unloading goods.

[Hefferzzzz]

Doesn't work anymore. Virtually all stations had their goods yards and other depot facilities ripped out and timetables are too tight to block a passenger platform unloading goods.

 

What would cost more then?

 

Build wider motorways, introduce new gantry signs, limits, enforcement.

 

Build new/recommisson old rail hubs.

[tmcd35]

The stretch is 32 miles long. The additional time to cover that distance at 60mph rather than 70mph is an extra four and a half minutes, assuming you are able to achieve a steady 60/70mph respectively.

 

Interesting. 4.5min doesn't sound a lot over a single 32mile stretch. The problem comes if the 32mile stretch is deemed so successful the national speed limit is dropped to 60mph. I semi-reguarly finish work at 4pm and just make it to the NEC in Birmingham at 7pm for the start of a show. Over that kind of distance such a change in speed limit could easilly add up to me missing the start of the show...

 

To find out why, research the cause of phantom traffic jams.

 

I thought most phantom traffic jams are caused by a knock on effect when tailgaters break. Does a 10mph speed reduction really cause people to back off and tailgate less? Or are they less scared by their tailgating and don't feel the need to panic break so often?

[jinnantonnixx]

Interesting. 4.5min doesn't sound a lot over a single 32mile stretch.

...

 

And that's the difference in time at the legal maxima. Contrary to intuition, real-world journeys might be faster with a 60 limit, but time will tell. It'll be interesting.

 

 

I thought most phantom traffic jams are caused by a knock on effect when tailgaters break. Does a 10mph speed reduction really cause people to back off and tailgate less? Or are they less scared by their tailgating and don't feel the need to panic break so often?

 

Yes, and it's been studied and known about for years. The irony is that the person(s) causing the phantom jams are long gone by the time the wave has formed. They've braked, caused a reaction behind, and this progressive reaction has been amplified until a compression wave has appeared. When this happens, traffic stops behaving as particles, and behaves like a wave. Research labs are knee deep in traffic flow research, and all the information points to a more uniform speed = better flow on congested roads.

Edited January 7, 2014 by jinnantonnixx