Lengthen school day says Gove!

[smurfomatic]

As someone working in a private school, I certainly agree with the comments that we don't necessarily have better equipment than the state sector! However, smaller class sizes certainly help (average here would be about 15, hardly anything bigger than 20) but the children are here from 8.30 to nearly 7pm five days a week, plus Saturdays - and that's for kids 8 years old and upwards. They do compensate by having longer holidays - just had 3 and a half weeks for Easter, and 8 weeks over the summer...

[sparkeh]

First hand experience of primaries in the area - they have such a focus on English, Maths and Science now, 'creative' and 'play' subjects are diminished.

Ah I see, so *your* local primaries are doing this, this is not the same as saying

Play is needed more in schools -primaries are slowly but surely removing it.

My experience of *my* local primaries is that play is valued as a way of learning and creativity is encouraged.

[localzuk]

Ah I see, so *your* local primaries are doing this, this is not the same as saying

My experience of *my* local primaries is that play is valued as a way of learning and creativity is encouraged.

 

You do realise we're all discussing from our own experiences here? I'm pretty sure none of us so far work at DoE level, or have PhDs in Child Development or some such? I present my views, based on my experience. You present yours. Don't get arsey about it because they differ.

[LiamH]

I don't think most schools could afford to pay for staffing. Teachers get payed AYR anyway for not being here, but support staff on TTO would rightfully expect to be paid for the extra days/hours. Doubt most teachers could teach well without the extensive support network they rely on now-a-days. We have a TA in pretty much every classroom.

 

Only way i could see it happening without increasing costs dramatically (also what about funding to heat/power the building) is to stagger the staffing, reducing the overall support.

 

Sounds like a quality vs quantity situation to me, improving standards rather than hours would be better for everyone.

[sparkeh]

You do realise we're all discussing from our own experiences here? I'm pretty sure none of us so far work at DoE level, or have PhDs in Child Development or some such? I present my views, based on my experience. You present yours. Don't get arsey about it because they differ.

Oh I'm sorry if you felt I was coming across arsey, really wasn't intended and reading back I don't think it sounds like that. I generally have a lot of time for your posts whether I agree with them or not.

 

Of course we are all talking from experience and stating that experience helps form the debate doesn't it. Saying "primaries are removing play" isn't helpful to the debate (or necessarily true as you can't speak of the national picture). Saying that in your area this is happening is helpful and interesting. If there was someone posting here who had experience of primaries at LA level then stating that they had experience of what the trend was at a county level is helpful and, truthfully, more valid in discussing the big picture.

 

Makes sense right?

Sparkeh (not arsey).

Edited April 19, 2013 by sparkeh

[localzuk]

An example for you - there used to be something called "Play Rangers" which used to arrange play activities down here, which had its funding cut and they stopped.

[Andrew_C]

what about looking at the private sector? They seem to have even longer holidays & yet their results seem to be ok. 3 weeks for Easter?

Cough... Four if you don't mind...

 

However, they do work VERY long days and have 5 lessons on a Saturday morning. 5 lessons Tues and Thurs morning, sprot and what-not in the afternoons. Mon, Weds, & Fri eight lessons, timed to allow more extra-curricular stuff. After all those lessons, there will be a couple hours COMPULSORY "homework".

[elsiegee40]

Private schools do generally get better results and they do have longer holidays, but...

 

- They often have a longer school day: 8.30am to 4pm or later is not uncommon for prep schools (primary). The private secondary in our town teaches until 6pm! And the preps finish at 4.30pm or 4pm

- The secondaries teach on Saturday mornings.

- The pupils come from a home environment where they have the space and parental support that means homework gets done and that holiday homework (lots of it) is expected and is also done.

[Flatpackhamster]

Im happy to accept the lower than average wage in return for the increased time I spend with my family. If Mr Gove expects me to spend less time with my family then I need to be compensated for that.

 

The basic starting salary for a NQT is the median income for the average earner in the UK. Teachers don't have a 'lower than average' wage, they have a higher than average wage. As well as 15 weeks of holiday.

[speckytecky]

Some cracking answers here - let's hope someone on here is a friend of Gove's and can point him toward the common sense being talked here. Maybe, just maybe he might then develop a really decent policy and stick with it. Also if this Government -Pah! Really wanted to leave a lasting mark of good they would ditch the BST clock change because after all that was also from the days we were an agrarian culture as well wasn't it.

[NikChillin]

Some cracking answers here - let's hope someone on here is a friend of Gove's and can point him toward the common sense being talked here. Maybe, just maybe he might then develop a really decent policy and stick with it. Also if this Government -Pah! Really wanted to leave a lasting mark of good they would ditch the BST clock change because after all that was also from the days we were an agrarian culture as well wasn't it.

 

Hear hear!

[JJonas]

The basic starting salary for a NQT is the median income for the average earner in the UK. Teachers don't have a 'lower than average' wage, they have a higher than average wage. As well as 15 weeks of holiday.

 

I am a full time IT Technician.

[SpuffMonkey]

Some cracking answers here - let's hope someone on here is a friend of Gove's and can point him toward the common sense being talked here. Maybe, just maybe he might then develop a really decent policy and stick with it. Also if this Government -Pah! Really wanted to leave a lasting mark of good they would ditch the BST clock change because after all that was also from the days we were an agrarian culture as well wasn't it.

 

I suppose one would have to point out that short hours and long holidays doesn't seem to have held Mr Gove back in any meaningful way - just saying...

[witch]

The basic starting salary for a NQT is the median income for the average earner in the UK. Teachers don't have a 'lower than average' wage, they have a higher than average wage. As well as 15 weeks of holiday.

 

You are mistaken. The starting salary for an NQT is £21588. The median UK income for 2011 is £26244.(Office of National Statistics website, see below) That's quite a difference which shows that an NQT's salary is nowhere near the median salary for the UK

 

"UK Salary Statistics:

The 2011 median gross annual earnings for full-time employees was £26,244, an increase of 1.4% from 2010. The median gross annual earnings for full-time women was £22,910 (an increase of 1.9%) and £28,409 (an increase of 1.2%) for full-time men."

Edited April 19, 2013 by witch

[teejay]

I can see the idea behind it, but it really hasn't been costed or thought through properly so when they start crunching the numbers and looking at the knock on effects then I can see this being kicked into the long grass pretty quickly.

For a start, staff costs are going to increase massively, teachers will need to be compensated for the extra hours or extra teachers employed to cope with the extra hours. Same with support staff, most of our support staff are only contracted from the current start to end of school hours, so their hours will need increasing, again costing more. PFI and BSF schools will probably get screwed for more money as the opening hours are longer.

You then have to look at the environmental issue and the hassle of the school runs being combined with rush hour, causing even more congestion at peak times.

IT wise, not really a problem as it works fine in business, apart from again extra costs for increasing technicians hours to full time and also paying overtime for out of hours work when upgrades need to be done. Yes certain upgrades can be done during school time, others can't.

I'm not against the idea, but there will be a lot of extra costs involved and schools aren't exactly rolling in money.

Edited April 19, 2013 by teejay

[SpuffMonkey]

Having had my lad go through the school system - I could never understand why more schools don't offer after-school childminding as an add on feature - they've already got the infrastructure - it wouldn't be a massive amount of managing to organise some extra staff and I would imagine they could make a reasonable whack if charging similar to the child minders we had to hire - even more if they put on homework clubs or catch up sessions or extra sporting stuff for those that like that sort of thing.

[Ephelyon]

Can we be very careful about how we define "Asian schools"?

 

South Korea is recognised as having one of the best education systems in the world - however they achieve it - but certainly we must also include North Korea, China, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, Vietnam... the list goes on. In many respects - not just in terms of education but also ethos and culture - these countries are all quite different from one another. Brian Lightman of the ASCL commented on Gove's announcement, saying we should not base our education systems on "anecdotes from other countries with vastly different cultures and attitudes to education". I'd be inclined to agree.

 

Also, yes, 24/7 operations work fine in some businesses, but in others they're not yet viable and certainly we must recognise that there will be schools whose staffing arrangements (and budgets) haven't put them in a position to demand anything extra on top of what they are currently offering.

 

Having said that, I'd support Gove's idea in principle but then a feasibility study must be carried out to determine, at a local level, just how viable this is. LEAs might be surveyed to determine the level of viability within individual schools in their purview... but then we must consider counties like Northamptonshire where most schools are now academies, which would complicate this task somewhat...

Edited April 19, 2013 by Ephelyon

[Flatpackhamster]

You are mistaken. The starting salary for an NQT is £21588.

 

The median UK income for 2011 is £26244.(Office of National Statistics website, see below) That's quite a difference which shows that an NQT's salary is nowhere near the median salary for the UK

 

"UK Salary Statistics:

The 2011 median gross annual earnings for full-time employees was £26,244, an increase of 1.4% from 2010. The median gross annual earnings for full-time women was £22,910 (an increase of 1.9%) and £28,409 (an increase of 1.2%) for full-time men."

 

Apologies. You are right. I was out on my figures.

 

I will rephrase it:

 

Assuming that you are a man, or work in or around London, and have no prior experience and take on no significant responsibility which offers you a pay increase, you, as an NQT, will not earn the median wage for men in the UK.

 

However, if you are a woman (like 90% of primary teachers and 65% of secondary teachers), or work in or around London, then as an NQT your salary will be within a whisker of the median wage for women in the UK. And within 12 months it will match it.

[witch]

Apologies. You are right. I was out on my figures.

 

I will rephrase it:

 

Assuming that you are a man, or work in or around London, and have no prior experience and take on no significant responsibility which offers you a pay increase, you, as an NQT, will not earn the median wage for men in the UK.

 

However, if you are a woman (like 90% of primary teachers and 65% of secondary teachers), or work in or around London, then as an NQT your salary will be within a whisker of the median wage for women in the UK. And within 12 months it will match it.

Except that you are not comparing like for like as the median wage in London is higher, even for women which will alter the case substantially. And no NQT can take on extra responsibility and most have no prior experience IME

But then, statistics can be used to show anything, can't they? Also, why pick on teachers? The median graduate salary in the UK is around £24000

Edited April 20, 2013 by witch

[Trapper]

You are mistaken. The starting salary for an NQT is £21588. The median UK income for 2011 is £26244.(Office of National Statistics website, see below) That's quite a difference which shows that an NQT's salary is nowhere near the median salary for the UK

 

"UK Salary Statistics:

The 2011 median gross annual earnings for full-time employees was £26,244, an increase of 1.4% from 2010. The median gross annual earnings for full-time women was £22,910 (an increase of 1.9%) and £28,409 (an increase of 1.2%) for full-time men."

 

True, but they also have guaranteed wage increases each year for six years which takes them way past the median UK salary. There are very few jobs which offer that. The MPS encompasses two support staff Grades in Birmingham each with 8 yearly increments based on performance management.

[witch]

True, but they also have guaranteed wage increases each year for six years which takes them way past the median UK salary. There are very few jobs which offer that. The MPS encompasses two support staff Grades in Birmingham each with 8 yearly increments based on performance management.

 

Oh yes, I know that and I am of the opinion that teachers are quite well paid - I just wasn't happy about the statement as I knew it to be untrue

[Flatpackhamster]

Except that you are not comparing like for like as the median wage in London is higher, even for women which will alter the case substantially. And no NQT can take on extra responsibility and most have no prior experience IME

But then, statistics can be used to show anything, can't they? Also, why pick on teachers? The median graduate salary in the UK is around £24000

 

Because teachers are the ones bitching about how dreadfully tiring their poor little lives are and how terribly hard done by they are. The public sector has had it way too easy for the last decade or so, and teachers have been given hefty salary increases with no commensurate requirement to up their game. We're paying champagne money for beer performance.

[witch]

I don't agree

But anyway, has anyone seen (or posted) this?

Labour Lords | A question of class | IWC2

 

Very interesting and thought-provoking. Particularly the bit about Asian schools changing direction a bit

[pcstru]

Because teachers are the ones bitching about how dreadfully tiring their poor little lives are and how terribly hard done by they are. The public sector has had it way too easy for the last decade or so, and teachers have been given hefty salary increases with no commensurate requirement to up their game. We're paying champagne money for beer performance.

 

Have you actually been near a school in the last 10 years? No requirement to up their game - what rot, Ofsted reworked their ratings upwards, meaning previously satisfactory performance is now graded as requiring improvement. Teachers are more and more assessed on the progress of their students and have been for at least the last decade. And while I'm sure there are lazy teachers out there, just as there are lazy people in every walk of life, the majority of teachers work long hours outside of the classroom preparing lessons, marking coursework and reading up on the ever changing requirements of the curriculum.

 

But hey, stick to generalisations - I'm sure it must save you hurting your head actually thinking.

[witch]

I agree. Whilst I have always been annoyed by teachers who seem to presume that the rest of the working population actually do only work 9-5.30 and they are the only ones doing long hours - I have seen an explosion in the amount of paperwork and planning etc in the last few years. Now, EVERY child has to have its progress assessed in EVERY lesson and woe betide the teacher if progress hasn't been made (ridiculous in my view). The data requirement is phenomenal as is the requirement to actually USE the data to decide how to best help every child. It almost seems as if the standing up and teaching in front of children is actually the least part of the job.

As a school governor I am very aware of all the data and how it is used and I can see that teachers are being held more and more accountable for every little thing they do, and asked to justify everything as well. They are assessed more continously and put on pathways to improvement and reassessed all the time. Salary increases are being tied to evidence much more now as well.