Desktops...

[CyBeRkId2002]

Hi,

 

We are in the market for purchasing new desktops for our college for the first time in 5ish years due to a new school build back in 2007. We are refreshing our ICT suite and am feeling a little left behind on what we should be looking for and could do with some advice. Budget is quite tight but so far have been looking at something similar to the below:

 

• Processor: i3 2nd or 3rd Generation
  
• RAM: 4gb DDR3
  
• HDD: Most quotes I have received have included a 250/500gb HDD but one which has come in under budget has proposed a 60gb SSD Drive. This is quite appealing but I am wondering whether I am future-proofing us enough with such a small drive. On the flip side our current image is in the region of 20gb and has had very little expansion in the past 5ish years due to the use of predominantly web-based applications.
  
• Onboard Graphics, LAN, Sound etc.
  

 

Have I missed anything significant out on the above and what are peoples overall opinions on the spec's for an ICT suite which we envisage refreshing every 4-5 years?

 

Thanks,

Michael

[FN-GM]

We purchased that space 18 months ago. Our more recent machine (Dell Optiplex 7010 USSF) have i5. It worked out only a few quid extra to be honest.

[CyBeRkId2002]

the problem is we have a relatively large number of computers to replace in a relatively short space of time and every little helps. I appreciate an i5 will be better but I would think even an i3 would be more than up to the tasks of today, and hopefully the next 5 years with regards video/image editing etc.

[FN-GM]

hopefully the next 5 years

 

I wouldn't count on it. How many is a large number?

[CyBeRkId2002]

2 suites so 66...

[localzuk]

My main concern would be the SSD - 60GB is too small IMO. With the progression of Windows OS's, a Windows 9 image may end up being half or more of that. Adding something like Solidworks and Adobe CS6 or something and your disk is full.

 

With the processor, I'm a fan of the i5's personally, but others are happy with their i3's. The difference in price between the 2 will be something like £30 a machine, tops IME.

[FN-GM]

Oh not as many as I thought. Our refreshes have been much larger. I do think 60GB is small plus I would go i5. It cost us less than a £5 per machine to upgrade to i5

 

Make sure you have enough room to expand with RAM wise.

 

What machines are you looking at and what costs? Our dells are i5, 250GB hdd, 5 year on site warranty, monitor, plus stand for the machine to sit on the back off for less than £500.

Edited February 19, 2013 by FN-GM

[CyBeRkId2002]

Well at the minute one of the options we are looking at (if we dont go the SSD route) is an i3, 4gb RAM, 1tb HDD for the princely sum of .... £275 inc VAT!

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

another thought is that if these are not capable of video/media stuff in a couple of years time these can be shipped off to admin, library roles...

[CyBeRkId2002]

...and yes, the more I think about it 60gb is far too small!

[Jamo]

Well at the minute one of the options we are looking at (if we dont go the SSD route) is an i3, 4gb RAM, 1tb HDD for the princely sum of .... £275 inc VAT!

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

another thought is that if these are not capable of video/media stuff in a couple of years time these can be shipped off to admin, library roles...

 

 

We run pretty much all I3's not had any issues with video things here, we run WLMM and Movie Plus with no issues.

 

They aren't creating feature films, but I can't see that happening anyway!

[dhicks]

Most quotes I have received have included a 250/500gb HDD but one which has come in under budget has proposed a 60gb SSD Drive.

 

I've just bought a couple of 750GB Momentus XT hybrid drives for my home server - they seemed like the best speed / performance / price combination available at the moment. I'm sure someone like VeryPC or similar could knock up a quote for a system based around a hybrid drive.

[Neil-Millgate]

i3 and 4gb seems to be pretty much a minimum that most go with now. I would definitely agree that 60gb, albeit SSD, is too small to be of much use going forward over the next 5 years.... Similar to what you mention above, 250gb or 500gb are standard sizes and should see you right for a while yet.

[Oaktech]

Just as a thought... if you buy an i3/4gb/60gb now and it proves to not be enough in a few years time, factor into your medium term plan a VDI infrastructure and recycle it as a thin client...

[Jamo]

Just as a thought... if you buy an i3/4gb/60gb now and it proves to not be enough in a few years time, factor into your medium term plan a VDI infrastructure and recycle it as a thin client...

 

We found VDI in schools to be a bit far fetched, poor audio recording and performance generally in the OS (window scrolling etc) just isn't as good as a fat client. We are considering them for remote access which to be honest it is perfect for.

[3s-gtech]

We have 60GB SSDs in a couple of hundred PCs now. With Windows 7 x64 plus Office, CS5.5, etc, we have 21GB free - that's the worst case model here including SIMS. Not massive space, but will do for the life of these PCs.

[localzuk]

We found VDI in schools to be a bit far fetched, poor audio recording and performance generally in the OS (window scrolling etc) just isn't as good as a fat client. We are considering them for remote access which to be honest it is perfect for.

 

As a school that uses thin clients, I can say that is odd. We don't use 'VDI', we use RDS and previously used Citrix. Multimedia performance has always been fine for us (so long as you update your servers every 3 years I'd say). Sure, they have latency issues if you want to do audio recording etc...

 

But then, many schools don't actually *need* fat clients everywhere. Our thin clients were decided upon because they are used for web browsing, powerpoint and word.

[FN-GM]

@Jamo you shouldn't get that something must not be setup right. My previous place used VDI for web conferencing daily. Worked a great.

[Jamo]

@Jamo you shouldn't get that something must not be setup right. My previous place used VDI for web conferencing daily. Worked a great.

 

Its ok, but its really not as fast as a thick client! By fast I mean, take a large webpage, scroll up and down like a loony and there is noticable lag on the VDI station.

[Jamo]

As a school that uses thin clients, I can say that is odd. We don't use 'VDI', we use RDS and previously used Citrix. Multimedia performance has always been fine for us (so long as you update your servers every 3 years I'd say). Sure, they have latency issues if you want to do audio recording etc...

 

But then, many schools don't actually *need* fat clients everywhere. Our thin clients were decided upon because they are used for web browsing, powerpoint and word.

 

We trialed the PCoIP variant of remote access. Basically the IT rooms do the OCR courses so video and audio editing is essential, the other rooms are general IT rooms and audacity is used often on them so audio recording was a pretty essential thing for us.

 

They do work, don't get me wrong, but they don't feel like an upgrade.

[glennda]

We trialed the PCoIP variant of remote access. Basically the IT rooms do the OCR courses so video and audio editing is essential, the other rooms are general IT rooms and audacity is used often on them so audio recording was a pretty essential thing for us.

 

They do work, don't get me wrong, but they don't feel like an upgrade.

 

I have a client who does audio recording through VMware VDI without a problem. In regards to Video performance there is a lot of tweaks to get this running smoothly if it is not for your.

 

The only time I have really had a problem is on a 300ms latency connetion in Oman to Servers in London.

[synaesthesia]

With the price difference just spec up 120/128gb SSD's instead. I really couldn't suggest using mechanical drives any more. Just avoid an original Sandforce drives or OCZ.

 

As for VDI/thin clienting, it's not a one size fits all. Some schools work differently to others - as good as it may be, I'd hate to think how it would work here when the school culture has an (admirable) ability to use hefty programs anywhere they want including Solidworks and CS5. However we're yet to see something in place, hoping to see something in action soon before making too much of a judgement on it!

[Jamo]

I have a client who does audio recording through VMware VDI without a problem. In regards to Video performance there is a lot of tweaks to get this running smoothly if it is not for your.

 

The only time I have really had a problem is on a 300ms latency connetion in Oman to Servers in London.

 

The audio recording works with USB mics

 

VMware KB: Recording sound through analog input devices fail in VMware View with PCoIP

 

But in terms of throughput you are just hammering your network! You could also use the RES VDI extender app, which looks brilliant, however its quite expensive. I have managed to get a bit of analogue recording through PCoIP with the unsupported driver that teradici make, but it wasn't as seemless as the thick clients.

 

I think what I am trying to say here is it works well, but it is not faster, nor vastly cheaper than thick clients, especially with Microsofts licencing scheme meaning that you have to buy an OEM licence for Windows to allow the EES VDA licence to apply. This means you cannot use the traditional thin client units without paying a premium.

[CyBeRkId2002]

cheers for all the input everyone...

 

Microsoft TS is something we are hoping to implement in the near future on some of our older existing hardware and something along the lines of this OS (:: Thinstation - a light, full-featured Linux thin client OS ::). We are yet to trial this and the main thing holding us back is our server infrastructure... We have recently purchased a server solely for remote access from home but without a second server capable of taking the load should this fail I am reluctant to role this out to any classrooms. Having said that we are having a new virtual infrastructure installed in the Summer and anticipate this being something we look to implement following this (maybe for admin/teacher workstations).

 

As for the current desktop purchase, as these computers will potentially run the CS suite of software, along with possible media creation in the future we have decided fat clients would be better suited. After speaking to quite a number of companies yesterday we now have a better idea of what we are looking for and have selected a product which I feel suits our needs. SSD will have to wait

[glennda]

The audio recording works with USB mics

 

VMware KB: Recording sound through analog input devices fail in VMware View with PCoIP

 

But in terms of throughput you are just hammering your network! You could also use the RES VDI extender app, which looks brilliant, however its quite expensive. I have managed to get a bit of analogue recording through PCoIP with the unsupported driver that teradici make, but it wasn't as seemless as the thick clients.

 

I think what I am trying to say here is it works well, but it is not faster, nor vastly cheaper than thick clients, especially with Microsofts licencing scheme meaning that you have to buy an OEM licence for Windows to allow the EES VDA licence to apply. This means you cannot use the traditional thin client units without paying a premium.

 

Ah missed you are using PCOIP - my client uses the RDP function for Audio Recording.

@synaesthesia you would be surprised that CS5 can work flawlessly in VDI enviroments provided the performance tweaks for graphics are followed.

[localzuk]

cheers for all the input everyone...

 

Microsoft TS is something we are hoping to implement in the near future on some of our older existing hardware and something along the lines of this OS (:: Thinstation - a light, full-featured Linux thin client OS ::). We are yet to trial this and the main thing holding us back is our server infrastructure... We have recently purchased a server solely for remote access from home but without a second server capable of taking the load should this fail I am reluctant to role this out to any classrooms. Having said that we are having a new virtual infrastructure installed in the Summer and anticipate this being something we look to implement following this (maybe for admin/teacher workstations).

 

As much as I like Thinstation, they are incredibly slow at updating things in my experience. I'd recommend going down a route of using a debian install and doing it yourself (I did this recently, my write-up is here http://www.edugeek.net/forums/thin-client-virtual-machines/107013-hp-t5735-custom-debian-install-allow-nla-session-broker-work-rds.html).

 

The reason to do this is that it allows me to keep the RDP client up to date to take advantage of things like RemoteFX and any new technologies that come out, in a matter of a few commands rather than having to build an entire new image.

 

As for the current desktop purchase, as these computers will potentially run the CS suite of software, along with possible media creation in the future we have decided fat clients would be better suited. After speaking to quite a number of companies yesterday we now have a better idea of what we are looking for and have selected a product which I feel suits our needs. SSD will have to wait http://staticb.cdngeek.net/images/smilies/frown.png

 

That sounds somewhat worrying! Why will the SSD have to wait? That is the single most important component to ensure you have in my view! The hard disk is the slowest component in a PC, so realistically, having a faster CPU won't give you the boost you want compared to an SSD.