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Mac Thread, Apple Leadership Event 19th October : Questions please in Technical; Originally Posted by GrumbleDook 8) When can we stick OS X on kit other than Apple kit? We'll pay! Honest! ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    8) When can we stick OS X on kit other than Apple kit? We'll pay! Honest!
    I don't think this question is even worth asking. Apple will never allow OS X to be installed on non-Apple hardware or in a VM on non-Apple hardware. Why would they want to sell you a copy of Lion for 20.99, when they can sell you a MacBook Air for 849.99-1,652.00? Steve would be turning in his grave if this happened.

    Other people suggest that Apple should allow OS X to be virtualized on any brand of hardware, even suggesting that Apple should sell a special license for this case. But this is a bad idea. Just selling the OS separately to run as a VM... what's the point of that? So people can run it without buying Apple hardware? What's in it for Apple? Then you'd have all these people who can't afford "real" hardware clogging up the Apple support ecosystem because their piece-of-*** machine doesn't paint the graphics as well as a MacBook.

    Other folks have suggested that Apple should sell these virtual hardware licenses so Mac OS X can run in a datacenter on real datacenter (e.g. "non-Apple") hardware which could be used to drive massive OS X-based VDI deployments. Again, this would be a colossally bad thing to do. The reasons people use VDI and the reasons they use Macs are not the same reasons. (In fact, they're almost the opposite.) And all of the beautiful graphics that Apple has can't be remoted except with the fastest LANs, so if you're only going to use an OS X-based VDI environment with a fast LAN... really.. what's the point? (Source)
    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    1) What are the plans for making integration of OS X.7 and AD actually happen and stay as something reliable?
    The 10.7.2 update released yesterday mentions the following...

    Code:
    Improve Active Directory and LDAP integration.
    It might be fine now.

  2. Thanks to Arthur from:

    GrumbleDook (18th October 2011)

  3. #17

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    You could ask why did they discontinue the Xserve and replace it with non-enterprise solutions with no power redundancy and in the case of the mac mini no way of using more than one Ethernet port?

    Also why the hell did they release lion server as they have done. Will they look to release a more fully fledged version with the service management tools put back in server admin?

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    GrumbleDook (18th October 2011)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    I don't think this question is even worth asking. Apple will never allow OS X to be installed on non-Apple hardware or in a VM on non-Apple hardware. Why would they want to sell you a copy of Lion for 20.99, when they can sell you a MacBook Air for 849.99-1,652.00? Steve would be turning in his grave if this happened.
    If you don't ask, you don't get. If they did a separate vm licence for esx or xen, they could charge more and have keep the same amount of profit. OSX server used to cost quite a lot on its own.

    Having looked at the mac "server" mini, its rubbish - having a redundant hd doesn't make it server grade. It doesn't have much in the way of ventilation, and generally seems low quality to me, especially given the price. Also VDI and server virtualisation arn't quite the same thing. You can have other benefits with virtualisation like reduced electricity bills, hardware redundancy etc. Like you say, you don't really want to do video editing etc with VDI. The cost of a mac server is quite high if I just want to use MCX and workgroup manager, it really doesn't warrant its own physical box.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    The 10.7.2 update released yesterday mentions the following...

    Code:
    Improve Active Directory and LDAP integration.
    It might be fine now.
    Given the utter failure I had with it last week, I probably won't bother trying it anytime soon. I'd quite like to know if they even tested the ad integration before they released it first time round.

    Anyway, I think this might be OT now.

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    GrumbleDook (18th October 2011)

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    I have to agree with those of you wanting to virtualise your servers to allow for some redundancy. The idea of running multiple Mac Minis to try to do this is missing the point. Although that last question is tongue in cheek it was based on a real request from a member.

    Thanks for the feedback ... keep it coming. I know a few ASEs are reading this thread too ... so nothing should come as too much of a surprise to those at the event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Cook View Post
    If you don't ask, you don't get.
    I am expecting a "no comment" for this question.

    Q. I want to receive more information about future Apple products and technology initiatives. How can I get this information from Apple?
    A. It is Apple's policy not to comment on unannounced products or products under development, whether or not they actually exist. It is also against our policy to discuss release dates. (Source)
    You only have to look at Apple's three year court case with Psystar in the U.S. and Steve Jobs killing off the Mac clones when he returned to Apple in 1997 to see that installing/virtualizing OS X on non-Apple hardware is never going to happen. Apple has zero incentive to change the status quo, especially with sales of Mac hardware increasing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Cook View Post
    OS X server used to cost quite a lot on its own.
    Selling software directly to consumers via the Mac App Store has resulted in lower prices across the board for all of Apple's applications (particularly Lion and Final Cut Pro X). The new lower price for Lion Server also makes it more appealing to home users with multiple iDevices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Cook View Post
    Having looked at the Mac "server" mini, it's rubbish - having a redundant HD doesn't make it server grade.
    I agree that it could be better, but there is always the Mac Pro if you need something more reliable from a hardware perspective and expandable. I don't think the lack of redundant PSUs or LOM are show-stoppers for most schools.

    The addition of Thunderbolt on every new Mac also makes internal storage less of an issue because you can easily add it externally (see the RAID enclosures from Promise, Sonnet and LaCie), connect to a SAN using a Thunderbolt to Fibre Channel adapter or use a PCIe expansion chassis (Sonnet RackMac mini Xserver, Magma ExpressBox 3T) along with a suitable RAID card and HDDs/SSDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Cook View Post
    It doesn't have much in the way of ventilation, and generally seems low quality to me, especially given the price.
    The new Mac mini's do get a bit hotter due to the jump from using 25w processors (Core 2 Duo P8600/P8800) in the 2010 models to 35-45w processors (Core i5-2415M/i5-2520M/i7-2635QM) in the 2011 models while keeping the same case from the previous-generation Mac mini Server. The latest models are apparently quite noisy under load, but I expect this will change next year when Apple release Mac's based on Intel's lower power "Ivy Bridge" processors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Cook View Post
    The cost of a mac server is quite high if I just want to use MCX and workgroup manager, it really doesn't warrant its own physical box.
    You don't necessarily have to buy a Mac server if you store preferences in Active Directory...

    tookitaway.co.uk/2011/09/managing-osx-10-6-preferences-for-macs-connected-to-an-active-directory-domain/
    blog.michael.kuron-germany.de/2011/02/active-directory-mac-os-x-mcx/

    Updates can be handled with Reposado and software deployment with Munki.

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    GrumbleDook (14th October 2011)

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    @arthur

    Thanks for the information about some alternatives to WGM, etc ... one problem I am coming across though is with some schools (primary and secondary) with limited staff and time, with limited expertise, are the people hitting problems. I know we have solutions like RM CCx in schools ... and it is there for a reason. At the moment there is nothing like that with Apple (ever since they caused problems for HiResolution which resulted in MacAdministrator going!) and the idea is to have as simple a solution as possible ... and one that consistently works. That is why, even though Apple have 'fixed things' in there last update (10.7.2) there is a very valid history of them breaking things again ... and some folk are forced to use a new OS / build that doesn't always work, because that is what comes on the hardware and they can't downgrade the OS version.

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    How can we use iPads in education when proxy servers are used and apps don't support authentication/identification?

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    GrumbleDook (18th October 2011)

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    Hi @drewp

    Thanks for the nudge, I had updated my Questions list but not on here.

    1) What are the plans for making integration of OSX.7 and AD actually happen and stay as something reliable?

    2) Can Apple give examples, case studies and instructions about how to employ iOS Devices in a multi-device, multi-user environment ... taking into consideration accessing and saving files, security, patch management, application deployment and configurations settings for accessing the network infrastructure? This includes working with educational networks where there are specific filters, proxies, firewalls, etc.

    3) Can Apple be clear about how Apps are now to be licensed on iOS and LionOS devices, taking into account that this is for devices that are multi-user and users who will access multiple devices, especially in the light of recent changes to the iTunes ToS in the UK.

    4) Can Apple be clear about what work they are doing with suppliers of educational resources and tools to help them provide stuff that will work across the range of Apple devices? If you can get Flash to work it would be a start!

    5) When will Apple start giving information to people in schools instead of just saying "Go ask an ASE" ... who are wonderful, but people in schools also want to learn and deploy things themselves (or have to, depending on the budgets).
    (Sorry if it seems that I want to do ASEs out of some business ...)

    Reserve questions (in case anyone else asks one of the above or if there is a clear demonstration of it at the event)

    6) Any chance of knocking another 20% off the price for schools?
    7) When are you coming back to BETT instead of just being done by ASEs? (who are wonderful people ... yada, yada, yada)
    8) When can we stick OSX on kit other than Apple kit? We'll pay! Honest!
    I think it fits within the context of Question 2 in the same way we would have to consider similar if putting any other software / system within a school.

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    apss and apps

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenwba View Post
    If i have a site license of iworks and have it on disk, how do i go about installing it on ipads?

    Now everything is geared towards to app store, as a school, we are finding it diffcult to go about buying apps, and using apple id/id's to roll out apps to multiple hardware ipad/macbook/imac.

    Questions on licensing, of apps, maybe a volume feature, so one apple id can buy and get discount on large numbers of apps.

    I can think of some more, but for me, the most urgent now, is the whole software issue, and purcashing from the app store, because we can only buy via PO, it means getting itunes vouchers every time we want something.
    stevenwba, someone might have already said this, but just in case: iWork for Mac is a different licence to the Pages/Numbers/Keynote apps for iPad. An iWork site licence is not valid for the iPad versions.

    Apple have allowed some resellers to sell 20+ volume licences of Mac apps now. We at Jigsaw are one of them, but it's fairly widespread I think. So if you need 20 or more Apertures, Final Cuts, Lions etc you can approach your favourite reseller. Sadly there still isn't a reseller scheme for one-off purchases like a single Lion Server licence or Apple Remote desktop.

    Hope that's useful.

  15. 2 Thanks to Robbocop:

    GrumbleDook (18th October 2011), stevenwba (20th October 2011)

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    Well, it was a good event I did tweet a heck of a lot (I wasn't trying to compete with @TheScarfedOne and @EduTech who were at the Microsoft IT Academy event in Reading ... honest) and I am going through my notes to put together a fuller report.

    I managed to get most of the questions asked during the sessions in one form or another ... and I am very thankful for some Apple staff who stayed behind to have a longer discussion.

    I'll stick a link to the report in this thread once it is finished.

    Once again, many thanks to all who put forward suggestions.

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    Sean-OC04 (20th October 2011), stevenwba (20th October 2011)

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    A little heathy competition! It looked from the tweets that were coming through to be a very usful event - even if some of the things were face palm moments - like managing apps on ipads. Grrr.

    Look forward to the report. Now, Ive got to go through all my tweets too...

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    GrumbleDook (20th October 2011)

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    The article is live on my blog ... just waiting for it to be authorised as a news item (prods a sleepy @ZeroHour) as it would be better to keep discussions going here.

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    Shame more couldn't be asked but it seemed like such a poor answer from apple that everything must be converted to HTML5. Sorry, most companies don't have the finances to do that and re-code everything so it works like it did on flash. I have seen a handful of companies try to recruit HTML5 coders aren't cheap, infact they cost more than flash animators and this is going to be a big PITA for many people.

    98% of enterprises rely on the Flash Player,
    93% of educational programs with live/actionable content relies on Flash
    85% of the most-visited web sites use Flash,
    75% of web video is viewed using the Flash Player,
    70% of web games are made in Flash.

    Don't see it happening any time soon

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    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    Shame more couldn't be asked but it seemed like such a poor answer from Apple that everything must be converted to HTML5.
    Don't forget about Microsoft! Windows 8 ARM tablets/Metro IE won't play Flash content either, so it's not just Apple.

    Adobe are hedging their bets with HTML5. They acquired Nitobi and TypeKit this month, added HTTP Live Streaming support to Flash Media Server v4.5 to enable iOS devices to receive HTML5 video streams (see announcement last month) and is adding more and more HTML5/CSS3 features to their Creative Suite.

    Amazon has also announced their new Kindle Format 8 spec which replaces Mobi 7 on the latest Kindles. Guess what it is based upon?

    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    most companies don't have the finances to do that and re-code everything so it works like it did on Flash.
    Why can't they simply do what Amanita Design did with Machinarium? What's stopping them?

    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    Don't see it happening any time soon
    Here are some interesting numbers to go with your stats...

    Apple Q4 2011 Results

    iPhones sold: 17.07 million, 21% growth YoY
    iPads sold: 11.12 million, 166% growth YoY
    iPods sold: 6.62 million, -27% decline YoY
    Macs sold: 4.89 million, 26% growth YoY

    Source: osxdaily.com/2011/10/18/apple-q4-2011-results/
    If we just count the iPad's and iPhone's, that works out to 28.19 million iOS devices sold last quarter alone. How can any business completely ignore that many potential customers?

    By comparison, Apple's competitors are shipping and/or selling approx. 200,000-2,000,000 tablets per quarter. RIM being on the low-end of that scale with their PlayBook and Samsung near the top (Asus and Motorola are somewhere in the middle).
    Last edited by Arthur; 21st October 2011 at 02:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    If we just count the iPad's and iPhone's, that works out to 28.19 million iOS devices sold last quarter alone. How can any business completely ignore that many potential customers?
    They're educational software companies. Some of them only evolve when they're bought out after going under due to head-in-the-sand "but surely everyone uses RealPlayer?" attitudes.

    Adapt or die doesn't appear to be in their lexicon.

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