Glasgow Airport

[witch]

Welcome to a discussion forum - that is what happens, people discuss things.

 

 

This thread is pointed at no-one. It is a discussion about the attack in Glasgow and a slight side track into the civil war that is occurring in iraq.

 

You cannot discuss something if you have little or no idea of the facts, ideologies or reasons behind something that has happened.

You can accuse, berate, and talk about some mythical 'them' but this is not discussion- it is speculation and accusation

[Skoggmeiger]

 

You cannot discuss something if you have little or no idea of the facts, ideologies or reasons behind something that has happened.

You can accuse, berate, and talk about some mythical 'them' but this is not discussion- it is speculation and accusation

 

What utter piffle!

[limbo]

OK - here is my take on it.

 

The difference between these attackers and the muslim religion is exactly the same as the difference between Christianity and the KKK.

 

I would class myself as somewere in the Christian spectrum of faith, but in no way would I consider myself in any way a supporter of the KKK. And this is how muslims feel about these terrorists.

 

It is very disturbing that these attacks are now so very crude and simple - as they have been saying all weekend, the components of the "weapons" in these attacks are stuff that anyone can go out and buy quite easily and with very little preparation inflict serious damage.

[localzuk]

It is very disturbing that these attacks are now so very crude and simple - as they have been saying all weekend, the components of the "weapons" in these attacks are stuff that anyone can go out and buy quite easily and with very little preparation inflict serious damage.

 

Not only that but detection of this purchasing is difficult because it is such 'off the shelf' stuff. How can you fight against people who make bombs from gas cylinders, petrol and nails/shrapnel?

[Quackers]

I work at the school which is 200 meters away from where these people live. Its full of police and tv crew.

[Guest Guest]

Can i just ask what exactly in this thread has offended so many people?

If you arnt allowed to "speculate" on a disscussion forum i think we should just shut up shop now as no one will have anything to say if every word spoken on here must be able to be backed up and jusified.

 

 

Sorry people but grow up. Theres alot worse things going on in the world then a few people disscussing something on a forum

[contink]

To put it bluntly, given our backgrounds, experiences and the like it's highly unlikely that we have anything like the information necessary to have an informed debate, discussion or otherwise on this topic.

 

What we do have are opinions, conjecture and let's be honest, so called information and "facts" that tend to be based on what we get 15th hand from some press sheet or other.

 

In short we haven't got a clue... but at the end of the day I'd guess we all agree that anyone using the lives of innocent people as pawns to be used to make some kind of political statement, is just plain wrong.

[rsarg]

The arrests that have happened on the M6 at the weekend have made me see that these people are everywhere the houses that r being searched are within my home town where u think u are safe well away from london and glasgow but maybe not

[GrumbleDook]

Can i just ask what exactly in this thread has offended so many people?

If you arnt allowed to "speculate" on a disscussion forum i think we should just shut up shop now as no one will have anything to say if every word spoken on here must be able to be backed up and jusified.

 

 

Sorry people but grow up. Theres alot worse things going on in the world then a few people disscussing something on a forum

 

A few things have been mentioned as offensive. Firstly some of the language used. One term in particular has taken a large group of people, used an offensive term based on a crass stereotype and not even attempted to make any separation between followers of a religion and extremist groups that are a very small minority.

 

Secondly, the lack of knowledge about the history and causes of this level of extremism is fairly evident. I do agree with those that mention that so much information we have about it is based on what the media tell us.

 

Thirdly, as much as I liked the West Wing storyline about the KKK being the Christian equivalent to these extremists it is an over simplification. The historic wars about 'them' and 'us' when it comes to Islam and Christianity have not had much to do with religion except to use it as an excuse, a recruitment tool or an umbrella to hide under. And please remember that this is before we even start on the impact of Israel and Judaism.

 

All sides involved have a long history of antagonism against each other and noone has clean hands in all of this.

 

Please remember that this is indeed a small minority, made up of different groups that have different agendas but are often using the same tactics and working together when it suits them.

 

If you must comment them please back up your information with relevant historical details (references to Anglo-Afgan wars and the destablising influence of Russia and Britain in the area, the attempts towards democracy and the eventual Russian invasion all creating opportunity after opportunity for those seeking power and control to do so under different labels are good areas to discuss the how and why we are in the present situation.)

 

Freedom of speech is fine, but the use of poorly research materials, hearsay or pure speculation based on ignorance or intolerance is not suitable for this site. If people want to discuss it else where then fine ... but if you do get your wrists slapped for it by Mods / Staff / Admins you cannot say you have not been warned when you discuss it on this site.

[limbo]

as much as I liked the West Wing storyline about the KKK being the Christian equivalent to these extremists it is an over simplification.

 

Not quite sure about anything to do with this being a West Wing storyline, but my point was about the relationship between the core of the relgion and the extreme rather than the causes of the action. I think it nicely puts it into context for those who consider themselves Christians (to whatever degee) - most of whom would be appaled to be put under the same banner as the KKK.

 

I stand by my point and fail to see why it is offensive in any way but this will be my last post on this thread just in case.

[Heebeejeebee]

The IRA DID NOT always give warnings. I am old enough to remember very well how it was then, and my sister missed dying in the Birmingham pub bombings by a whisker. To say they gave warning implies that people who died because of an IRA bomb did what - ignored the warning? Nonsense!

 

I assume you mean this one http://news.bbc..co.uk/.....

 

A few minutes before the explosions a warning had been telephoned to the local newspaper, the Birmingham Post and Mail, but it was far too late.

 

OK it was late and I wasn't there and I have no idea of how horrible it was (apart from news reports) so am not qualified to go any further but I will say that as someone has mentioned earlier nearly all Muslims find these current attacks abhorrent and disgusting.

 

Second Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islamic religion. So while I know we all want to be back seat theologians get your facts right first.

 

Really? The Christian Crusades were about enforcing Christianity upon people. Isn't Islamic terrorism a modern version of the Crusades? Please explain (no, really - I want to make sure I've not got it wrong).

 

HBJB

[kingswood]

Welcome to a discussion forum - that is what happens, people discuss things.

 

 

This thread is pointed at no-one. It is a discussion about the attack in Glasgow and a slight side track into the civil war that is occurring in iraq.

 

You cannot discuss something if you have little or no idea of the facts, ideologies or reasons behind something that has happened.

You can accuse, berate, and talk about some mythical 'them' but this is not discussion- it is speculation and accusation

 

I have a degree in theology. One of my subjects was "Comparitive Religions". One religion studied (among many) was Islam. I think there is a lot of ignorance out there about what (exactly) certain texts do and do not say about warring with non-believers or states etc. I am not about to get into specific facts pointing at particular religious beliefs. This isn't the place for that. The comments that have been made are on the whole opinion. Take them as that. See it as a comparitive commentary on current events taken from a slice of the populace and what you have is discussion. Take the comments as anything more and proportion is being altered by twitching eyes.

 

Of course there is speculation. Over the last week as many as four attempts at mass killing have been made in this country. The Police and Government will be speculating. All of us have thoughts about what and why. Accusation is another thing for sure- if we didn't have anyone in custody for these crimes then that would be a valid point. But the *fact* is we do have *accused* and these people are being added to every day. Be careful about not ascribing to these same people an ideological/religious basis for their actions based too on speculation and accusation!

 

Let's get raw. Of course we can discuss what has happened without recourse to ideological or religious/political background information. It was a terrorist attack on UK soil. No matter the weird thinking behind it- it was a criminal act and should be judged as such.

 

Paul

[Geoff]

Second Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islamic religion. So while I know we all want to be back seat theologians get your facts right first.

 

Really? The Christian Crusades were about enforcing Christianity upon people. Isn't Islamic terrorism a modern version of the Crusades? Please explain (no, really - I want to make sure I've not got it wrong).

 

HBJB

 

You might want to read up on the 6th pillar of Islam and Jihad to understand how mainstream Islam relates to these smaller and more extreme Islamic groups.

 

And really, just stay away from the whole Crusades thing. It's not relevant to the modern situation.

[Andrew_C]

And really, just stay away from the whole Crusades thing. It's not relevant to the modern situation.

Except that there are those who believe, or purport to believe, that the fundamentalist christians are crusading again, and that they are defending themselves against attack.

[Heebeejeebee]

You might want to read up on the 6th pillar of Islam and Jihad to understand how mainstream Islam relates to these smaller and more extreme Islamic groups.

 

Understood. Splinter groups/not sanctioned/not truly part of Islam. That's what most have been saying been saying

 

And really, just stay away from the whole Crusades thing. It's not relevant to the modern situation.

 

I think you misunderstood. I was talking about Islamic terrorism and it's similar theme to the crusades not retaliation for the current war in the Middle East.

 

I'm trying to be as balanced as I can but there comes a point when I just don't understand why it's happening any more.

 

HBJB

[kingswood]

And really, just stay away from the whole Crusades thing. It's not relevant to the modern situation.

Except that there are those who believe, or purport to believe, that the fundamentalist christians are crusading again, and that they are defending themselves against attack.

 

The Crusaders were not fundamentalist Christians- if by that you mean to say Christians who believe that there are parts of the Bible that should be taken as literal historical accounts of events in the past. Catholicism (the faith basis of Crusaders back then) is actually a very allegorical faith. And so unless you define what is meant by "fundamentalist" and "crusading again" (which presupposes that they have done this type of thing before) the discussion can't move on.

 

Being defensive (as you put it) is extremely different from a jihad or walking into a crowded room with bombs strapped to your belly for "the cause" and extinguishing life. To most Muslims this would be a sickening thing to do. To just about all Christians it's just as repulsive. And I guess it is hard to not be defensive in a world where you are labeled "fundamentalist" in the same breath as decrying radical terror-fundamentalism that leads to bombings and the killing of fellow humans. What you are doing by linking these two in the same breath is making a mental assumption that they are one and the same thing. And it simply isn't true.

 

Paul

[Geoff]

To add to the above, and take things in a slightly different direction. They are also fighting against Westernisation of their culture. This is very relevant in places like Afghanistan, where they've previously pushed back against Communism. Ultimately leading to the rise of the Taliban (don't shout I know it's more complex than that) and their ultra-conservative interpretation of Islamic law.

[Skoggmeiger]

 

Let's get raw. Of course we can discuss what has happened without recourse to ideological or religious/political background information. It was a terrorist attack on UK soil. No matter the weird thinking behind it- it was a criminal act and should be judged as such.

 

Paul

 

And finally, the voice of reason speaks. To those of you saying we shouldn't be discussing such events because we don't know the true facts behind these events - I'm sure glad I don't have to sit in the pub with you, 'cos I bet your conversations are boring as hell!

[Guest Guest]

lmao

[witch]

skoggmeiger

You negate the value of everything and anything you say by the rudeness with which you say it.

 

Remember that when this discussion started, there WERE accusatory and racist remarks - and no one had even attempted to separate the religion from the people carrying out these terrorist acts.

I am very glad to see that people who do have background knowledge about the topic have joined and given some balance to the discussion - perhaps my error was to not realise that there were so many who could comment in a rational informed, way.

I agree that of course you can discuss a terrorist attack on British soil, although I see little point in speculating about it.

I was concerned about the direction some of the posts were going, that's all - it is easy for the uninformed to think that the comments being made are 'facts' - and this applies to the media as well.

[Skoggmeiger]

skoggmeiger

You negate the value of everything and anything you say by the rudeness with which you say it.

 

Replace rudeness for patronising and it's come right back at you.

 

Edit: Ok, my above comment is childish reponse, but I felt it needed saying.

 

I'm in no way advocating that rascist/offensive posts should be allowed. I do however, take offence at being told HOW we are allowed to discuss something. Not being knowledgeble in a subject does not deny you the right to discuss it.

 

Now let's all sit down and have a nice cup of tea, kiss and make up and agree that there are some nasty people out there wanting to hurt many innocent people all over the world.

[witch]

If you bother to read what I wrote, I did just say that discussion was fine.

I don't think that declaring what someone has written as 'piffle' is actually proper discussion, do you?

 

As for patronising,- absolutely - that IS how you talk to the young, isn't it?!

 

Now, as you have admitted being childish I will get you a nice glass of milk and a biccy.

[Skoggmeiger]

If you bother to read what I wrote, I did just say that discussion was fine.

I don't think that declaring what someone has written as 'piffle' is actually proper discussion, do you?

 

As for patronising,- absolutely - that IS how you talk to the young, isn't it?!

 

Now, as you have admitted being childish I will get you a nice glass of milk and a biccy.

 

EDIT: Reply deleted.

 

You win. I've got work to do.