PC Pro - OpenSource is no good for schools?

[Ric_]

I've just finished reading the article titled "Linux flunks high school" by David Moss and Jon Honeyball in issue 135 of PC Pro and was shocked at the outcome.

 

I expected an article to appear at some point, stating the benefits and drawbacks of opensource in schools but instead found an account of why it isn't faesable to contemplate using opensource alternatives.

 

There was little to no mention of how Linux can be implemented behind the scenes with ease, for example as an intranet web server or a proxy server. No mention of 'hybrid' solutions was mentioned either - Linux clients running remote Windows sessions, opensource curriculum clients and MS-based admin clients, etc.

 

Another assumption made is that we (technicians) have all received training in MS products - a fact that we know isn't necessarily true and if we weren't paying hundreds of pounds for the software we could maybe afford training.

 

The final point that angered me was this assumption that people are never going to be able to use anything but MS Office. OpenOffice is mentioned and it is thought that staff and students would require training and would find it hard to adjust. No mention is made to the fact that MS has big plans afoot to change the interface to Office in the next release.

 

I think that my letter to PC Pro will be penned shortly... hmmm...

[russdev]

will go and buy a copy today and read it maybe paul (believe that his name) one editors of pc pro who been on board before would like to repsond or even getting orginal writers on here..

 

here is davids email [email protected] and jons email is [email protected] i will send them link to this topic and ask them to comment you never know.

 

please note this emails where all found on public websites...

 

 

Russ

 

 

follwoing email was sent to them inviting them to comment here

 

Hello

 

I would like to point you to following discussion that taking place at EduGeek.net (http://www.edugeek.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=9353#9353) in which we are discussing your article in PC Pro issue 135.

 

As one of main online communities for IT Professionals in schools in which have over 300 members. Our We also held a very popular conference last year and plan to do two times in 2006. We are also working with Specialist School Trust in various projects.

 

Anyway needless to say our members we feel have good handle on what is going on in ICT in education and some members feel that your article was wrong so we would like to extend an invite you both of you to come and discuss your point on why you think open source is not for schools and you why you left out some of key areas where it is being used very successfully...

 

Russell Dyas

EduGeek Admin

 

[kingswood]

I haven't read the article yet, but will. I would say though that PC Pro aren't very "Pro" Mac or Linux/OSS- even though OO is on their A-List! That said, I think there is a huge difference between using OSS and turning to Linux as a full solution. An example is my trusty Dell laptop- XP Pro but running just about every OSS solution to a problem I can find quite happily (things like Apache, OO, Audacity, GIMP and even free AV a la OSS style).

 

I'll post back when I read it...

 

Paul

[Ric_]

will go and buy a copy today ...

 

May struggle - I don't think that it's in the shops yet - subscribers seem to receive the issues earlier and earlier. It's Jaunary's issue and it's not even December yet!

[MkII]

Isn't David Moss the person into thin client as well? Would have thought LTSP would have made a mention too. Just tip off the guy from the Cutter Project - they won't know what hit them!

[Geoff]

I don't know about the other guy but Jon Honeyball has always been Pro-Windows. I think he had editorship of a Windows Mag once or twice.

[Dos_Box]

I always get the impression that Jon gets out of his depth when it comes to non M$ situations, besides, at what level do non M$ office products not deliver the goods for schools? For industry (perhaps) where all oft he collaboration features may, or may not be used, but in schools where the most that they are going to do with a word processor is mail merge then OOo and Star Office are a fine choice.

[tarquel]

Shame that the public dont have a clue as to the situations in schools isnt it? lol

 

I'm not gonna go and buy the mag just to read the article but did they work with a local school or something for this project, or did they just guess? lol

 

Cheers

[Ric_]

@tarquel: David Moss works in schools and he weighs up the cost of re-training on opensource with the cost of his MS Schools' Agreement (which I personally don't think is a cost effective licensing scheme anyway - £27/year for Office, Windows upgrade and CALs compared to the price you can buy at with Select?)

 

To me, it just sounded a little one-sided and not much research had gone into the alternatives - can't wait for 'Mr Cutter Project' to read it

[tarquel]

MS Schools' Agreement is a mixed bag of vipers indeed.

 

I see Ric Thanks

[Ric_]

<--------- Topic Split ------------->

Offshoot about MS Schools' Agreement can be found at http://edugeek.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=9445#9445

[russdev]

Shame that the public dont have a clue as to the situations in schools isnt it? lol

 

I'm not gonna go and buy the mag just to read the article but did they work with a local school or something for this project, or did they just guess? lol

 

Cheers

 

well could just go and stand in smiths and read it or if got borders close by sit and read it...

 

Russ

[tarquel]

Smiths? i think not lol

 

Not unless i want to travel 30mins to read it there lol

 

Think spar might stock it

 

Cheers

N.

[theshirt]

We were invited to use a Linux server solution and did so with mixed sucess for 3 years before jumping back to Windows platform. We had a very hybrid system with a Linux server some linux thin and medium client and windows 98 and XP.

 

Pupils used OO and MSO and moved almost seamlessly between the two,Staff were another matter with resistance to all computers let alone something that was 'different'. The lack of a relational database led us away from OO and the proponderance of teaching material based on MSO 2000 mkes using it for teaching a much simpler option. As a small school relying on remote support for maintaining our Linux server that found coping with increasing numbers of XP workstations we felt that a Windows platform was the best choice for us. Particularly as we wanted to run educational software across the network, Maths Alive, Metro Electro etc

 

That said 3 years ago Windows licences were £100+ and offices licences a simmilar ammount, both of these are now below £35 each following increasing interest in non MS products. I have no regrets about becomming involved in Linux and OSS and there are many interesting developments out there but some of the 'anoraks' involved in OSS must remember that ICT is a tool for learning in schools and ICT Technicians and co-ordinators have a responsibility for their systems to be reliable nd useable; for us Windows platform was the way to move.

 

Without some real enthusiasts and support from colleagues in school OSS will struggle to work for the pupils and school in general, If it can be embraced by the whole school then all well and good but in the majority of establishments it is for the hidden processes, proxy servers, cacheing and servers provided that you have local expertise, or not at all.

 

I have yet to read the PC pro article, I don't have the time, it is on the side in the kitchen but will do so, having read the threads above OSS and Microsoft have their supporters, I have a lot of time for the OSS movement and the pressure they put on Microsoft but for the moment I am with Microsoft but that will be reviewed next time we are in need of a major overhaul, for the moment I broadly agree with PC Pro, Linux isnt for front end users in schools.

[GrumbleDook]

I have not read the article yet, but I have to admit to not bothering with PC Pro anymore.

 

I got tired of it about 2 years ago as it was going through another spell of "if it isn't for *serious* gaming it is not a serious computer!"

 

Like a lot of magazines they seem to think their opinion is the be all and end all, and I got bored of it. I am not sure if they have changed editor since I last looked at it but I couldn't see the point on renewing the subscription if it was likely to go downhill again.

 

Personally, if they can't look at the pros and cons of a mixed platform then they shouldn't bother making comments.

[russdev]

i heard a quote yersterday when using ict think 3 things is it useful, is it useful, is it useful...

 

yes linux is not right for some people and is for some,

 

oo 2.0 is good way got a decent database in it now...

 

But i agree but i think bearing in mind not read article yet but will do...

 

the article sounded one sided and that linux is not sutable for anything in schools in which we all know this is not true.

 

linux has long way to be suuccesful on the desktop but is getting there..

 

Russ

[Netman]

***** Post editted due to content! *****

 

Ric_

[Ric_]

Just finished reading the article in the Christmas 2005 edition of Linux Format (LXF74) on Linux in education.

 

There is short piece on serval projects, including Karoshi, and I feel that this is a much more objective view of Linux in education than the PC Pro article - despite being in a Linux mag!

 

Instead of trying to decide whether Linux is better than Windows, it outlines some of the ways that you could use Linux and mentions some of the schools that are doing so.

 

Well done Linux Format!

[Dos_Box]

I have now got the latest PC Pro and have read the artical by Davis Moss and am quite shocked!! Is he a teacher or techie I wonder? The whole item is very, very dismissive of Linux without giving any specific reasons or viability of his arguments. The line 'The chance of someone doing something unintentional and rendering the system unrecoverable is a lot higher under Linux for example', is utter, utter rubbish. His entire slant on how his qualifications and experience are all Windows based and so exclude him from using Linux just make him come across as lazy and unwilling to learn new skills.

I really get the impression the entire article was funded by Microsoft, as it reeks of disinformation and poorly thought out arguments which have no substance whatsoever. By implecation he will never install nor upgrade any software on his network ever again, nor will he move beyond his current Office setup. It makes the blood boil, it really does.

 

*Afterthought* If he is a teacher he should really not be doing the amount of dabbling he does under the new working agreements, and if he is a techy he seems the type I often get calls from heads about when their network manager or technician is unable or unwilling to carry out work or invesatigate a new technology through fear that they are getting out of their shallow depth or really have little knowlege or learning ability to adapt to new techniques.

[MkII]

I found PC Pro to be very biased like this in the past D_B. I support your sentiments entirely.

[russdev]

well read article last nigh (picked copy up in town on sat)

 

anyway my initial thoughts are article is very flawed first the fact that even in windows enviroment he will need training or if he does like most of us learn 'on the job' then he can do the same with linux as he has done with windows.

 

The fact he is trying to argue linux as complete replacment shows how little he understand ict in education and linux. As no one would argue for complete replacement of systems with linux for example never would replace mis systems with linux not at this stage.

 

Again the fact he completly miss hybred solution of having linux servers and xp worksattions just shows how much he lacks in skills to implmenent a required solution.

 

The fact even bases on windows figures on licnese costs alone how about training and support contracts.

 

This article is one sided and just shows to be honest how little the writer understands ict in education letter to pc pro time...

 

Russ

[tarquel]

For us, theshirt hit the nail on the head with what he said, but i for one wud embrace linux/opensource in the backend of thing like sql/webserver's - its just having the time to learn thats the problem.

 

Although everything is running quite nicely so far so i can work on it soon [as a s start, gonna have a dual boot - xp & linux - machine at home and get to work learning it ]

 

Cheers,

N.

[ChrisH]

For doing stuff at home use Colinux it runs Linux on your desktop in a window.

[russdev]

that seems interesting project going to have a look at it

 

Russ

[kingswood]

OK. I might suffer the collective wrath of our penguin loving friends on here, but I liked what Dave Moss said. Yes, it was a little biased, but it was honest. He didn't couch his article with a felt need to look "geeky" or "hip" (which is what happens sometimes when people discuss which distro they use lately, or how much they saved by recompiling their aged kernel to work with wireless or whatever).

 

I think it was good from a number of perspectives:

 

1. Dave Moss is writing from his personal perspective and his schools' position with regards to specialist software and skills. Lets face it (and let's be honest) teachers like their specialist software, only limited amounts of which can be found among the ranks of Apple or Linux offerings (and if they are offered from the Linux camp just don't offer the documentation, training, or support required by staff, students, or support staff).

 

With skills things look worse for Linux/Unix at the moment. There are plenty of people with pretty good to very good Windows knowledge schools can hire, and this means they get productive from the get go. Dave mentions this in part of his article when he refers to MCSE qualifications and self taught Windows skills. The reason for this is manifold, but primarily one of availability. Ever looked for decent entry level "we'll show you how its done" Linux server books? They are there, but they assume (generally) a certain level of Linux kowledge before using them. But look for a book on Server 2003, and you can get drowned in the options. For Linux to become more acceptable it needs that documentation and skills training (I know LPI and CompTIA are helping here- and its good).

 

2. Dave takes an honest look too at replacing the network with Linux/Apple equipment and software. Now, I'm a big Apple fan, but would be the first to jump all over the suggestion we move entirely to Mac OS X (although that's not as bad as moving entirely to Linux). Yes, he could have looked at integration but what's the point? After testing some integration scenarios the best I could think up to fit my own situation was to continue using smoothwall as a firewall. And even that wasn't convincing enough. Perhaps- as some intimated- it is because I'm lazy. Maybe. But with working full-time, studying for an MCP and HND and being a Dad and a husband I haven't the time to learn how to integrate Linux with our 2000/2003 servers or even replace desktops with it etc etc. And I sure haven't got the time to re-teach staff and students how to use an application over again (Open Office anyone?) when the current solution costs very little and works (they use it at home and mum and dad use it at work- they can all use it).

 

So from two practical perspectives I think Dave hit the nail on the head. OK- so let's look at integration a bit more closely with an example Dave uses- Wine. I tried it some time back and it didn't work well at all, and it seems that this is Dave's experience too. In a school you can't "guess" it's gonna work- it *has* to work. And if it doesn't work as planned the support structure needs to be there to help get it working. Linux newsgroups etc anyone? Fine. But what you'll generally get are recommendations to try this, that, or the other distribution with it. Hmmpphh. Bang goes another working week of distraction and heart-ache.

 

3. Cost. Here's the big one. I have read the BECTA pamphlet about OSS in schools. It's pretty good. But really- is MS software really that excpensive- and are we saying that it is ethically wrong to have to pay for software in any case? The prices Dave Moss quotes are a little less than we pay for licenses, but it shows that MS are doing what they can to reduce the gap between "free" software and its own offerings (for schools at least). This is a good thing, and probably why many schools administrators have looked at Linux and just thrown their hands up in the air and submitted to the inevitable: Windows works well enough, Office is pretty good, the staff and students can use- we can even run all the software they want- and we can get training, documentation, and usually suitably skilled staff to support the whole.

 

Here's the key:

 

"The software landscape of our user base is too diverse, and the skill set of our user base is too diverse, and the skills sets of our users and managers mean they don't want to spend time problem-solving..."

 

I agree. And I also agree with Dave's sentiments about having the desire to change the landscape- it would be nice to have the skills and support required to do this. But I don't see it happening in many schools at all. I understand that Karoshi is an option (and others like it)- a recent Linux Format whet my appetite on that one. But when you *really* look it isn't an option for our school- at least not right now (for a variety of reasons- some of which are above).

 

In the final analysis it's bias that can read the article and find itself totally opposed to its premise without considering where it comes from and why- without really hearing what the guy is saying. He isn't anti-Linux; but he is anti-change for change' sake. And so am I.

 

As a last point- hybrid pretty much means the same thing in this context as total rebuild of network. Why? Because you rip out the heart of the network by taking away AD and Server and then replace it with Linux solutions and XP clients. You lose what you had to gain what? It's all one and the same- same problems getting skills, support, staff retraining, and downtime...

 

Now running for the bunker!!!

 

Paul