Windows or Linux -- A Question

[Disease]

Is there anyone on this board who uses a 100% Linux Network, i.e there is not one machine/Laptop etc belonging to the school that uses windows.

 

If so how do you find it.

 

In the great Windows vs Linux arguement I keep finding Linux advocates that just hate windows regardless and blindly slate anything to do with it. When you counter back that big business' use Windows a hell of a lot compared to Linux they say "no they don't" or "Thats because they are to stupid to use Linux" or "Windows is unreliable and crap" now bearing in mind that the IT Directors get paid 6 figure salaries in these big companies and reliability is a fundimental issue I find it hard to believe that these statements are true. So the question is does anyone use a completely Linux system and dish out your pro's and cons of either system.

 

Thanks

[webman]

In schools, using a 100% linux network would be stupid at the present time, due to the amount of existing educational software (and SIMS) that requires windows. Fortunately we are seeing more and more web-based software which will eventually allow people to move away from MS and benefit from Linux on the desktop.

 

However, the amount of servers relying on Linux is increasing all the time - web apps (apache), email (zimbra/scalix/openexchange), dns/dhcp, file serving, proxy/filtering... there is no need to pay though the nose to MS to get locked into a proprietary and inferior operating system and application set.

 

Have a look at the Cutter Project (case studies) and Karoshi for an idea on Linux in schools. Also This ElReg article on Orwell High School.

[Jake]

Heres the worrying quote from that El Reg article on Orwell High School.

 

"He believes a single technician could now administer something between three and five separate schools if they all used systems like those in place at Orwell High School"

 

Dang ! Thats my job down the pan

 

Nice photo of their IT suite though

[Disease]

I understand that, but bold claims Like Windows is inferior to Linux need supporting evidence to ever be taken seriously. Your claim that programs are becoming more reliant on Linux is not true either. I am really seriously trying to understand where these claims that Linux is better than windows comes from and is not just born out of hatred of Microsoft.

 

You say ....

 

In schools, using a 100% linux network would be stupid at the present time, due to the amount of existing educational software (and SIMS) that requires windows. Fortunately we are seeing more and more web-based software which will eventually allow people to move away from MS and benefit from Linux on the desktop.

 

I think it's a pipe dream of Linux users to believe that one day everyone and his dog will use Linux as it will not happen, why move (as a user) from a system that is easy to set up and ituitive to use to a system that is frankly not?

 

Cost? Everything costs in life and you get what you pay for.

 

Exploits? Recent reports show that Linux has more 'Holes' in it than Windows OS.

[openhgs]

Our curriculum network is Linux and there are many advantages. No viruses, proper security, proper file sharing, higher performance, etc, etc. All the usual reasons that have been trotted out many times before. We have no compatibility issues; we give each pupil a custom copy of the OpenCD which contains the same programs as they use at school. If they choose not to use it, and they cannot access files that they have created at home, that's their problem. The only disadvantage is one of perception, the old "it can't be any good it's not Microsoft".

 

Microsoft only exists for one reason, that is to make as much money as possible for the shareholders. Linux exists for the good of humanity.

 

I found an interesting news item today. Britain's leading optician, Specsavers, has migrated from Windows to Red Hat Enterprise Linux in all its 830 stores. To quote from the story " Although Specsavers won't go into details, online discussion has reported that Vista played a large part in the company's move. While sympathetic to Linux, the company had been wary of the retraining costs involved in moving to a new operating system. Thanks to Vista, the company reckoned it would pay those costs whether or not it stayed with Microsoft, so the move to Linux became less of a jump." Specsavers have branches in Ireland, the Netherlands, Scandinavia and Spain and wholesale business in Australia and Hong Kong, so the effects of this move is major.

[Disease]

With ref. to your article on Orwell High School....... A Quote from a student at the school...

 

I’m a student at Orwell and my experience of open source through school hasn’t won my heart or mind. I have Mandrake on my laptop, but at school it was a nightmare. After struggling with a poorly implemented system for the last 2 years (my GCSE years), I have returned to do my A Level studies to find, not really as a surprise, that we’ve switched back to Windows. So much for the “potential cost-savings”.

 

The problems wasn’t really with system, which could have been a great move, but the fact that the school did a direct change, without training the students or *teachers*. Basically we had Windows, then the summer holidays, then Linux. That was it. Get on with your work. Stop asking silly questions.

 

So we’re left to do coursework on computers that would freeze up every 5/10 minutes, if you could get them past a thing saying ‘Insert boot disk’. And they had a strange habit of booting as Windows 95. Not something you expect from a Linux machine.

 

Inevitably, the overworked head of IT - and only teacher that had a clue - left before the end of this year. So did the technician (that’s right, there was only one). So that’s left us with a half Linux half Windows wreck of an IT system. And shit grades.

 

not a great example really.

[webman]

why move (as a user) from a system that is easy to set up and ituitive to use to a system that is frankly not?

Source?

 

Cost? Everything costs in life and you get what you pay for.

Not always true.

 

Exploits? Recent reports show that Linux has more 'Holes' in it than Windows OS.

Source? Who sponsored the report, Microsoft?

 

but the fact that the school did a direct change, without training the students or *teachers*

Therein lies the problem.

[Andrew_C]

I am really seriously trying to understand where these claims that Linux is better than windows comes from and is not just born out of hatred of Microsoft.

The real question is not where the claims come from, but is it?

In schools, using a 100% linux network would be stupid

I think most would agree here. To many external agencies use M$ to ever get away from it, if that were even desirable. However, I can see it being used as a back-end, and on the desktop for those that need to learn to compute, not run a proprietary application

why move (as a user) from a system that is easy to set up and intuitive to use to a system that is frankly not?

M$ intuitive and easy to set up? I really don't think so! Apart from the old chestnut of pressing "Start" to switch off... If one were "brought up" on Linux or Mac or whatever, that would SEEM intuitive, and M$ perverse and plain weird.

Exploits? Recent reports show that Linux has more 'Holes' in it than Windows OS.

I'd be interested to know who paid for that research. FUD anyone?

[Geoff]

There are projects (worldwide) where this is successfully being done. For example:

 

The Cutter Project

Karoshi

DebianEdu/Skoleinux

K12 LTSP

Edubuntu

 

Now in practical terms, most of us here have legacy systems and infrastructure we can't simply afford to throw away all in one go. The method I've been using is to slowly ween systems and services off Windows and onto Linux. Starting with 'simple' back office stuff (File and Print, DNS, DHCP, etc) that Linux is naturally better at or on new projects (quite a few things LAMP based, NAC, network firewall). Then moving up towards more user visible systems (we've just chucked Exchange for Zimbra these past few weeks for example).

 

I also fully accept I wont be able to write off our huge investment in Windows based educational software. Therefore, we've implemented Citrix Terminal Servers. So these software applications can be accessed regardless of the client platform.

 

Incidentally, this also keys in nicely with the solution we have devised for a steadily looming budget issue. Namely, we can't afford to keep buying more and more desktop PCs and keep up with our obligations to replace old machines. Therefore, the only way to break this cycle is to implement thin clients. So we'd need Citrix/TS anyway to solve this other problem.

 

On the Admin side of the school. Potentially we'll be also be able to solve the same problem with Citrix/TS. This also has the happy side effect of solving yet another issue looming in the distance. Namely having the ability to give some admin staff the option to work from home.

 

If anyone wishes to pick holes in my cunning plans, feel free. I welcome the input.

[Disease]

http://weblog.infoworld.com/securityadviser/archives/2006/10/windows_versus.html

 

Tbh it's not hard to find data to prove that the "linux is more secure than MS arguement" is flawed.

 

Orwell kid wrote:

but the fact that the school did a direct change, without training the students or *teachers*

Therein lies the problem.

 

That is in regard to the USE not to the problem of it crashing every 5/10 mins as described by the actual user of the system.

[webman]

Obviously the technician is busy or said kid was purposefully causing it to crash.

[Scotmk]

I am really seriously trying to understand where these claims that Linux is better than windows comes from and is not just born out of hatred of Microsoft.

 

 

I agree, I think its simply the bad press making people think Microsoft are/were in charge dominating the market, and others dont like that. so turn that into a hate against all things Microsoft.

 

I have used pure MS networks most of the time and dont really have any issues, serverwise, datawise, permissions etc. so when people quote linux does it better, sometimes this may be a inproper use/config of Microsoft software.

 

If I invented a car that took the world by storm and 95% of the world drove one, there would always be someone who disagrees and buys a nissan micra saying ita much better you could do this easier. then there would be a craze to not touch my car.

 

Personally if 1 man can create a bit of software that makes him zillions of dollars and is everywhere, well done to that man.

 

Thats enough, just rambling.

[Scotmk]

I am ready for the backlash.......

 

 

Please be gentle........

 

[budgester]

Heres the worrying quote from that El Reg article on Orwell High School.

 

"He believes a single technician could now administer something between three and five separate schools if they all used systems like those in place at Orwell High School"

 

Dang ! Thats my job down the pan

 

Nice photo of their IT suite though

 

Must have some real nice kids there, that don't damage the hardware.

[webman]

Why do you hate Linux, Disease?

 

so when people quote linux does it better, sometimes this may be a inproper use/config of Microsoft software.

 

One could also turn round and say "when people quote linux is crap, sometimes this may be improper use/config of Linux software".

[Disease]

openhgs the question was do you have a 100% Linux network, you don't as according to your Wiki on OpenHGS.org you had:

 

CMIS/Eportal Server

(Actually it is really called sv-1-handsgr) Win2003 - R2

 

Intel Xeon 3.40GHz (Dual Core)

4GB RAM

147GB RAID (C: 20GB, E: 80GB)

Sony AIT-2 tape drive

10/100/1000 Network - 10.121.131.3 (Nominal Interface - 10.121.131.2 (Eportal Interface)

Installed by EDIT 23-25 April 2007

 

 

26/04/07

MW

Tweaks to UI for improved performance

 

14/05/07

MW

CMIS 2.81.8 installed

 

16/05/05

MW

CMIS 2.81.9 installed

 

Really the question is why would you put the IP addresses of your entire network on the open internet? I think you are playing a very deadly game of putting all that info on an open website, but maybe thats just me.

[budgester]

I'm waiting for the time that the kids all use there own thin client terminals.

 

What am I talking about ?

 

Well with the processing power of mobile phones going up at a rate of knots how long will it take before we can bluetooth sync with a monitor/network/keyboard ?

 

Now thats what I want to see...

[BKGarry]

I know that Jo Harris (LinuxGirl) uses almost a totally linux based backbone with some windows workstations running on it and some pure linux ones.

 

She might be a person worth talking to

[webman]

Really the question is why would you put the IP addresses of your entire network on the open internet? I think you are playing a very deadly game of putting all that info on an open website, but maybe thats just me.

 

Coming from a Microsoft network, you will be used to security by obscurity.

[Disease]

Why do you hate Linux, Disease?

 

 

Thats the thing, I don't hate Linux, I think it has it's equal place amongst OS's it has positives and negatives. What I hate is people who allow their hatred of EVERYTHING Microsoft to cloud their judgement and cause them to make biased opinions of MS Software.

 

Windows 2003 Server - - Never had an OS crash since using it since launch.

 

Windows Vista -- another hot potato never had any problem with it at all, using it both here at work and at home. Never had any problem getting drivers and programs to work on it.

 

Linux Unbuntu -- Run a server at home for playing around with, never had a problem with it.

 

Maybe I am just brilliant at setting up networks and installing OS's

[Disease]

Really the question is why would you put the IP addresses of your entire network on the open internet? I think you are playing a very deadly game of putting all that info on an open website, but maybe thats just me.

 

Coming from a Microsoft network, you will be used to security by obscurity.

 

Nothing to do with security by obscurity why would anyone want that info freely available to any unscrupulous hacker thats out there.

[budgester]

Windows vs Linux......can't we just accept that someone has to be the hippy of the IT world

 

**Runs off and points at the Linux Hippies**

 

Hey someone has to.....

 

Have the good drugs.

Get the free love.

Save the planet.

Not wear a tie.

 

So i'll put my hand up as a Linux loving hippie.

[webman]

Why do you hate Linux, Disease?

Thats the thing, I don't hate Linux,

 

You do, you said so yourself:

 

I personally hate Linux and would never use it in my network but I won't claim it is unreliable as that is just not true.

 

Hmmm :-k

 

why would anyone want that info freely available to any unscrupulous hacker thats out there.

 

Why, what can they do with it? Firwall/NAT in place shouldn't be a problem. Unless of course you use ISA then you'd have loads to worry about

[Disease]

hehe you got me there although truely I don't hate Linux the OS, I hate Linux users.

 

So you think that a Linux firewall is inpeneratable, lol.

[webman]

No, I didn't say that nor was that implied