[acs] Progresso Fail In Birmingham?

[john_brum]

I hear Progresso has failed badly in Birmingham, with none of the three sample school being able to adopt it at all. I hear the one that did try and go live has erm, well died.

 

Is this hearsay and gossip, or is this product really not ready at all? Is it that Birmingham are not managing it properly?

 

Who knows. If you do, let us all know please, I'd hate to be recommending a dead duck to my school.

 

Thanks

 

John

[Michael]

There are pros and cons with all MIS systems, but from what you're saying, it doesn't sound good.

 

Facility still has a number of years left, so for the time being I'd sit back and relax. Only select a replacement MIS when required, rather than be the beta tester.

 

And remember, love them or hate them, Capita will be releasing (hopefully) a cloud based version of SIMS and possibly FMS in a few years.

[david_1152]

Interesting. The school I work for is one of the samples here in Birmingham for Progresso. Happy to report our news as and when it happens, but at this moment in time - watch this space. We are yet to have our data uploaded or indeed played with the system much at all. We have had some training, which I have to say was promising - Progresso does look good. BUT, then again we're 5 months in and still no system to play with.

 

Yes Beta testing does have it's issues, but as of yet we're yet to test anything.

 

I'll update as things change,

 

 

Dave.

[vikpaw]

...

And remember, love them or hate them, Capita will be releasing (hopefully) a cloud based version of SIMS and possibly FMS in a few years.

 

Don't hold too much hope, it's not on the current 5-year plan.

[APC]

I am aware that there are two schools in Birmingham who are fully live with progresso and as part of the 'Pioneer' project were fully expecting to be testing the product and feeding back on their experiences to enhance development etc etc...

 

And am also told that more schools will be going live in the near future - as said above its very early days at the moment...

 

Don't hold too much hope, it's not on the current 5-year plan.

thats not what Capita have told Birmingham Schools directly!

[Michael]

MIS systems will go web based, it's only a matter of time. To continue with a local client application just isn't realistic. You also open up the possibilities of using MIS on Windows, Linux and Apple, in school or on the move. It would be ideal for school trips, but also for parents to update their own contact information (for example).

 

They'd also be more room for various other enhancements/requirements as time goes on. You could argue it could also be more secure too. Instead of updating .NET Framework on 100+ workstations, you'd just have to worry about updating it on your MIS server.

 

The only downside (as far as I can see), is if it goes down it could create a problem, but I'd expect this to be extremely rare. There are enough server technologies to keep sites available.

[Bromcom_John]

MIS systems will go web based, it's only a matter of time. To continue with a local client application just isn't realistic. You also open up the possibilities of using MIS on Windows, Linux and Apple, in school or on the move. It would be ideal for school trips, but also for parents to update their own contact information (for example).

 

They'd also be more room for various other enhancements/requirements as time goes on. You could argue it could also be more secure too. Instead of updating .NET Framework on 100+ workstations, you'd just have to worry about updating it on your MIS server.

 

You know something, just once it's nice to hear someone else saying that

[Geoff]

I'd love to think it'll happen like that but I seriously doubt it. Short of an open source system or a serious new entry into the market to level the playing field no one has any reason to do the above or even do it well. Web applications aren't a magic bullet either, it's perfectly possible to write horrible web apps that are unusable, inefficient, insecure monstrosities.

[Michael]

I'd love to think it'll happen like that but I seriously doubt it. Short of an open source system or a serious new entry into the market to level the playing field no one has any reason to do the above or even do it well. Web applications aren't a magic bullet either, it's perfectly possible to write horrible web apps that are unusable, inefficient, insecure monstrosities.

 

You're absolutely right, they could develop a web based MIS which is horrible. It's in their interest though to get it right because potentially more LAs or schools would buy into it. If it allows a school to do a lot more with the database, then the cost is more justifiable.

 

The only downside to a web based solution is that there any many different browsers out there. Looking at HTML5 for example, there isn't currently a one solution fits all. All the current crop of browsers support different 'features' of HTML5, which just makes programming sites that little more difficult.

 

I suspect that due to the complexity of an MIS system, MS SQL and .NET will be the choice rather than MySQL and PHP. It all boils down to support, seeing as schools are sold an MIS system - so if something critical happened to the database, Microsoft in theory would/should be able to assist. Some engineers also argue that MS SQL scales better with the latest versions of MS SQL supporting database clustering. The reality is MIS databases are only going to get bigger, so this makes a lot of sense.

 

Web based solutions can end up being considerably cheaper too. It's going to cost less money to create a web based MIS that works on Windows, Linux and Apple, rather than create a locally installed application for each platform, along with any dependancies. This isn't including the fact there are multiple 'current' OSes such as XP, Vista and 7 which all have their advantages and disadvantages.

[vikpaw]

I am aware that there are two schools in Birmingham who are fully live with progresso and as part of the 'Pioneer' project were fully expecting to be testing the product and feeding back on their experiences to enhance development etc etc...

 

And am also told that more schools will be going live in the near future - as said above its very early days at the moment...

 

thats not what Capita have told Birmingham Schools directly!

 

It's not what the MD told me at BETT 2012!

 

I'd love to think it'll happen like that but I seriously doubt it. Short of an open source system or a serious new entry into the market to level the playing field no one has any reason to do the above or even do it well. Web applications aren't a magic bullet either, it's perfectly possible to write horrible web apps that are unusable, inefficient, insecure monstrosities.

 

Have you heard of Aspen | Follett ?

[Oaktech]

I'd love to think it'll happen like that but I seriously doubt it. Short of an open source system or a serious new entry into the market to level the playing field no one has any reason to do the above or even do it well. Web applications aren't a magic bullet either, it's perfectly possible to write horrible web apps that are unusable, inefficient, insecure monstrosities.

 

Ummmm... unless i'm reading this wrong, progresso IS entirely web based, so someone (serco) has absolutely felt the need to do 'the above'.

 

The cycnic in me says that this is an attempt to make it harder to leave an MIS for another, and to allow them to charge for their uber secure hosting, but only time will tell if i'm paranoid...

[johnb763]

Does anyone know if the Schools in Birmingham have gone live yet? If so did Progresso work as sold?

[GREED]

I'd love to think it'll happen like that but I seriously doubt it. Short of an open source system or a serious new entry into the market to level the playing field no one has any reason to do the above or even do it well. Web applications aren't a magic bullet either, it's perfectly possible to write horrible web apps that are unusable, inefficient, insecure monstrosities.

 

Couldn't have set you up better for Aspens introduction to the market! Completely web based, stable and a large proven client base already. Cloud is the way forward, offering 24/7 anywhere in the world without the need for a bolt on synchronising information to a localised server. I personally wish Serco all the luck in the world in getting Progresso rolled out right, they have seen what the market is calling for and moved to meet customer needs. That is no disrespect to those supplies that have had web based packages for years now

 

There are some interesting moves with education technology right towards cloud, hosting environments, basically taking your entire desktop, apps, files etc etc and moving it to the cloud... Available anywhere any time. BYOD quickly taking shape. This is another reason Aspen is kicking off so well: any OS any browser and Internet enabled device...

 

I'm not sure it is right to say it has failed, but such a huge shift is taking time to implement. Like I said, good luck to them!

[Tallwood_6]

Loads of schools seemed to jump aboard Progresso from launch or so we have been led to believe, yet we still haven't been given permission to speak to any schools in the south east to see how its all going and communication from Serco has been dreadful. I do get the impression those who have moved across early are struggling, not least because there is very little 3rd party integration at the moment.

The product itself looks good on the surface though.

[Steven_Cleaver]

I am completely opposed to Cloud based MIS for a number of reasons and sorry if this is a bit off track.

 

Ties you more into an MIS more.(all hardware offsite)

Have to buy all MIS modules from one supplier instead of perhaps purchasing other modules or functions that work with your MIS "no one supplier is the best at everything".

At some point charging by user or amount of data stored a possibility etc.

Internet down no access to Data.

The Provider decides if the system needs to go down for maintenance upgrades etc. (No Access and could be at critical time for the school)

Loads of schools data on one system "Hackers thankyou very much one system to target to get Millions of pieces of information."Data protection and who's responsability"

Uses up my Internet bandwith running Reports, taking registers etc.

 

The above is why I will be staying away from Cloud based MIS systems if at all possible.

[GREED]

@Steven_Cleaver do you feel that these possible negatives outweigh the positives a cloud system brings to customers? Customers being staff, parents, students?

 

I respect what you are saying, some points you make are very valid. Some are not an issue with all cloud based systems. Some suppliers of web based systems allow you to host yourself, so you retain control over the hardware. Every supplier prices on some form of annual maintenance, per pupil is one way. Most providers of web systems, particularly hosted, schedule upgrade times with the concent of their customers, and also target typical quiet times of the year.

 

Internet going down: Yes a problem. If your internet goes down, an internal system will work, but no access to the rest of the world still, and your externally working users (parents, students) cannot access your system. On the cloud, at least you have the options for 3G connectivity (depending on the MIS obviously ) We live in dark days where frequent internet outages still occur... we do live in 2012 right?

 

Uses up bandwidth: Again depends on the MIS. If it is truely cloud, information exchange should be minimul, even reporting or even creating the timetable. It should be done at the server end, presenting only the required infomation to the user, like most good optimised websites these days.

 

Obviously I am talking about MIS systems I know well I cannot speak for all.

 

Interesting discussion points though

[Steven_Cleaver]

Web based hosted internally with External access I am not so concerned with and we run a few systems along those lines, it is just Cloud based where everything is offsite. Your right as regards pricing of MIS systems per user pupil etc it is just if hosted offsite, I just feel it is more difficult to move if you aren't happy as you need to either get your data moved between suppliers or purchase equipment and get the Data moved internally onto your new infrastructure which I just feel would be difficult.

 

I know a couple of companies that schedule upgrades without discussing with the customer and because of their size really people can't argue so lose all access to MIS while the upgrade is underway again Cloud based systems or externally hosted.

 

Your also right about bandwidth as regards if designed right this shouldn't be a problem but I wouldn't be hundred percent confident in this. Issues coming around the Exam season where everyone is trying reports or extract information. MIS cloud company becomes successful 200 schools move to use their system all of a sudden companies infrastructure can't cope system unusable I haven't seen this with MIS Cloud based but have with other web based\Cloud based systems taking a few weeks to resolve fully.The school wouldn't be happy if this happened with MIS system, No Attendance,No access to Pupil, Parent info, Time Table etc.

 

If the Internet goes down you can still access everything in school so wouldn't normally effect your MIS system during the day which would happen on a Cloud based system.

[alttab]

I am completely opposed to Cloud based MIS for a number of reasons and sorry if this is a bit off track.

 

Ties you more into an MIS more.(all hardware offsite)

Have to buy all MIS modules from one supplier instead of perhaps purchasing other modules or functions that work with your MIS "no one supplier is the best at everything".

At some point charging by user or amount of data stored a possibility etc.

Internet down no access to Data.

The Provider decides if the system needs to go down for maintenance upgrades etc. (No Access and could be at critical time for the school)

Loads of schools data on one system "Hackers thankyou very much one system to target to get Millions of pieces of information."Data protection and who's responsability"

Uses up my Internet bandwith running Reports, taking registers etc.

 

The above is why I will be staying away from Cloud based MIS systems if at all possible.

 

to be fair, i know this back and forth over fully hosted vs onsite has been done before, and the arguments well rehearsed....but from my own experience our LA internet feed has been rock solid for as long as i can remember. Sometimes in schools it can be an issue of local proxies playing silly beggars that can cause a minimum amount of disruption and more seriously not having a backup link in the event of a major outage, but a well designed service provider network will have diverse paths and the one's i've had experience of are generally these days pretty good at resolving issues. Again, it's a lot better than it was a few years ago when you had hdsl connections into schools and better than the early days of fibre rollout when they were first building out mpls networks.

 

obviously the ultimate argument is that if the school has a power outage or other major disruption then you can't guarantee being back up for potentially several hours (unless you've got a diesel generator tucked away in an outbuilding). How's that any different to internet connectivity being down for a few hours ? both are worst case scenarios that should be rare occurrences.

 

to be brutally honest, folk higher up than us onsite support staff and arguably better positioned to judge DPA issues for MIS in the cloud wouldn't even provide such solutions it if it didn't meet various criteria. Surely responsibility for the secure hosting of the service, and thus protection from cyber attacks lies with the hosting company ? I can honestly say it's not something that would worry me if i was a user of such a system...just as a user of online banking i take various precautions that i have control over like keeping my computer patched using an up to date browser etc - the modern world is about having a certain amount of trust in big corps to safeguard your data ensure your bank balance has the right number of 0's that type of thing, more so such issues would keep me up at night if i were the provider. As indeed you sort of are if your hosting data on the school servers as in the traditional model, and your solely responsible for stuff like backing up the MIS database, so that you or whichever LA you have a support contract will can restore the data in case of emergency. now that's pressure.

 

the ultimate factor in deciding whether it's in the best interests of schools' ICT support is a) does this cloud MIS thingy create more support calls for me, or fewer. It could be that you get more complaints about 'network slow, register taking an age to load' but then counter balance that with all the other stuff that eats up time in supporting an onsite system where patching, downtime, client updates are your responsibility. I'd be amazed if cloud MIS created more not less work. It might be more frustrating in being more reliant on the MIS provider, and obviously there is an added burden on so many more clients going out to the internet using up bandwidth...but then if you can't get 100mbps+ feeds or your comfortable in managing the burden of hosting MIS onsite then it probably is no need to jump in, but quite a few schools have access to faster and faster pipes just crying out for a killer app besides consuming online video, and maybe they want to free up time and resources from hosting the MIS themselves in the long run. Ultimately it is about how you end managing/providing this key service in the long run.

[DeBarra]

I hear Progresso has failed badly in Birmingham, with none of the three sample school being able to adopt it at all. I hear the one that did try and go live has erm, well died.

 

Is this hearsay and gossip, or is this product really not ready at all? Is it that Birmingham are not managing it properly?

 

Who knows. If you do, let us all know please, I'd hate to be recommending a dead duck to my school.

 

Maybe that explains why they're still pushing ePortal in Ireland, but a loads of schools jumping onto VSware.ie – Cloud and mobile based MIS.

[vikpaw]

Maybe that explains why they're still pushing ePortal in Ireland, but a loads of schools jumping onto VSware.ie – Cloud and mobile based MIS.

 

You gotta love the salesline:

Finally, an Irish alternative to Serco!

[simc]

I am one of those early schools. We did struggle in the beginning but we are in the Pioneer stages so we did sign up for a bit of pain. As an ex powerlifter I can say we had the pain and now are starting to enjoy the gain. It is building nicely and we are getting to grips with the exciting features and realizing massive potential in the product. Watch this space. I don't think it goes on general release until version 12.2 is out which is end of June/July.

[AlanHardy]

Me too I completely agree definite risks involved

[ChrisJ]

You gotta love the salesline:

Finally, an Irish alternative to Serco!

 

Even though Facility was originally an Irish product and still has a lot of core functionality based off Irish procedures

[APC]

There has been an update published on the Link2ICT website today which gives a clearer picture of the Progresso situation in Birmingham...

 

http://www.link2ict.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=201:progresso-mis-june-2012&catid=24:mis-updates&Itemid=73

[michael2k6]

Only available to those in Birmingham with a login though.