[sims] SIMS.net change request

[Benmorgan86uk]

Apologies if this is in the wrong place, I am new here.

 

Why we cannot do this already absolutely baffles me but...

 

I have logged a change request with Capita regarding data tracking in SIMS. We have recently experienced an issue whereby someone has put some incorrect data into SIMS and are quite keen to find out who it was in order to approach them and, if neccessary, retrain them in how to do it correctly.

 

Basically someone had entered an absence in incorrectly which has potential ramifications, however this has got me thinking, what would stop a student accessing a workstation with SIMS on it, and modifying pieces of SIMS, or worse still, obtaining a member of staff password, surely this would would enable the administrators to be able to spot potential training issues, and also (and more importantly) potential security breaches.

 

I would appreciate anyone that feels the same if they could take a look at the change request and vote on it.

 

Change Req. Number: 1202-1043439

[GREED]

What is it the change request is looking to provide?

 

As with all of this, user training is key, a reminder of Win + L

[Benmorgan86uk]

I am looking at this simply being able to tell an admin who entered what information.

 

I would have thought it would be good practice to be able to have an trail for situations such as this.

 

I completely agree with the win key + L, but I have seen staff accidentally type their passwords in the username field before now, and students have seen it.

 

I simply look at the situation as either 1. a student can see a password and start causing mayhem and the only sure way to ensure they cannot get in again is to change all the passwords, or 2. an admin can track it back to a specific user, change just their own password, and there is no major panic.

 

Maybe I am being a mug, but this all makes sense in my head

[paul]

Attendance is already auditable using the Reason for change routine Routines | Attendance (Lesson Monitor | Edit Reason for Change. This will highlight any unexpected changes of marks i.e changing a / (present) to a I (illness)

[Benmorgan86uk]

The issue I am experiencing personally is with a member of staff rather than a student.

 

Basically we have had a member of staff that has been entered as having leave which they are not entitled to, we would like to know who entered it so we can check if it was accidental etc.

[apeo]

I've voted for it but if it ever gets implemented (probably not) it will likely create additional overhead. I too have always wondered why we dont have a way to audit users via SIMS given how much sensitive data is recorded.

[creese]

Having been involved with Change Request Days with Capita, this changed has been rejected a number of times. Reasons being that the log would be huge and unwieldy due to the number of transactions in SIMS.

 

There is a log for Attendance and one in Primaries for Dinner Money at present. I know the Dinner Money log is large and wouldn't want to have to trawl through a 'general' log. Especially if you don't know the date it was amended, erased, added etc.

[matt40k]

Also this would only report on the staff users account that has been "hacked". I suggest to download the SIMS permissions spreadsheets and check who has access rights to add absenses, this should be only a hand full of people - ie the HR person and the person who does cover, when you add cover it (can?) add it to the personnel record (such as training). Those people should be limited to static desktops computers where they are physically secure, ie someone will notice if a student walks into the PA room. It may be possible that the cover person could be a teacher and using a laptop - so if they're not very lock computer friendly, maybe look at creating two SIMS login accounts - one for classroom use and another for Cover duties - just a thought. Similar idea to what all technicians do, they have a work-work account and a work-administrator account.

[apeo]

Well question asked and answered, thanks creese. Come to think of it now that you mention it I do remember reading about this LOL. Memory is not quite what it use to be.

[Sivadam]

I have voted strongly against for the reasons already explained in a previous post.

I have attended a number of Software Consultation meetings where this and similar CRs have been discussed and rejected. It simply is not practical.

In vital areas like P7 there are built in safeguards provided by the System7 Permissions Groups which all schools should be aware of.

[vikpaw]

I'm voting for. Other systems out there provide auditing, and i'm sure if they wanted to they could find a way to archive the logs or overwrite them after a set period. It shouldn't be that much of an overhead.

Anyway, that's for the software developers to deal with, not for us as end users to say, well it creates an overhead and slows the system down. We should ask for what we want, so they have it on the agenda and try to think up ways to improve it.

It is key data we're storing and security is key, in all the ways mentioned above, but some kind of audit would be useful. This crops up in so many areas, attendance, behaviour etc.

[GREED]

Banking systems for example provide full audit trails of all changes... and they are some of the best in the world... just saying!

[AmandaLambert]

Banking systems for example provide full audit trails of all changes... and they are some of the best in the world... just saying!

 

I worked for a bank & the audit trails are excellent. I will vote strongly agree, because we are a very large school & have issues with people amending students details incorrectly, there is no way of finding out who or why. Although I understand that the audit log would be very large, I feel in the 21st Century this really should be achievable, we are dealing with the records of children & protecting their data should be the highest priority.

[GREED]

When you consider SQL transaction logs are doing more or less just this, on a shorter term basis there must be ways of using these as the interrigation of changes made (obviously not month or years).

[creese]

Banking systems for example provide full audit trails of all changes... and they are some of the best in the world... just saying!

 

To be fair to Capita, someone has to be :-), Banks don't have to prioritise government changes every few months and then incorporate them into these logs... in a meaningful way. Don't forget, every school doesn't have the people with the knowledge or ability to interrogate these logs.

[matt40k]

To be fair, logins is done via the Event Logs currently. Changes in data, ok, you could use SQL but ideally you want this outside of SQL, after all, if someone's hacked your SQL database, you don't want your logins in the SQL database. They could use Log4net or NLog then log it off to a separate database, log file, logging service (such as a syslog server(. Ironically they're distrubuting Log4Net as part of the standard sims client. NLog and Log4Net are both flexiable enough, they could just start getting it to output to it, then users could define it themselves where it goes from there. If it isn't define, it doesn't get logged. Simple.

[GREED]

@matt40k logins shouldn't be a problem. not passwords or the likes obviously. The usernames are the key part you want to know about. if your db is hacked the usernames might not get you very far. They could be easy to guess. Further integration with AD cold help with that?

[matt40k]

Missing my point @GREED, the point of audit logins is that if you do something, it's trace able. If someones done something it should be audit, regardless of access rights, and they shouldn't be able to wipe it. I suppose until access is limited to only via the application \ api it's all pretty pointless and limited.

 

On enterprise system you have dual audit logs, one local and one central, if the local doesnt' match the central, you have a call logged with a reason why - normally you had to clear it due to disc space. It's also handy when your working across systems, such as all your SQL servers getting "random" failed logins from a guy in china - or when you use a reverse proxy.

 

Actually doesn't a certain MIS system support Syslog out of the box to do such auditing?

[jinnantonnixx]

It's perfectly possible to do this; one approach would be to set up triggers on key tables (tables that you find particularly interesting) and create one trigger for an insert, one for update and another for delete.

The triggers could write the SQLuser, date and time (and I think IP address, but I haven't checked) to a simple shadow table, something like

User/Table_accessed/Date/Time/IP/Action (Insert/Update/Delete)

 

And because we're using triggers from the SQL server, rather than the stored procedures or a logging function from within the SIMS app, it would record activity even if someone hacked it outside of the SIMS application, recording who did something, an indication of what they did and when they did it.

 

But this is certainly NOT something to try during a free 5 minutes.

Edited February 27, 2012 by jinnantonnixx

[GREED]

Missing my point @GREED, the point of audit logins is that if you do something, it's trace able. If someones done something it should be audit, regardless of access rights, and they shouldn't be able to wipe it. I suppose until access is limited to only via the application \ api it's all pretty pointless and limited.

 

On enterprise system you have dual audit logs, one local and one central, if the local doesnt' match the central, you have a call logged with a reason why - normally you had to clear it due to disc space. It's also handy when your working across systems, such as all your SQL servers getting "random" failed logins from a guy in china - or when you use a reverse proxy.

 

Actually doesn't a certain MIS system support Syslog out of the box to do such auditing?

 

Ahhhh I understand what you mean now, so someone hacks to remove their activity from the system. Good point!

 

Your right there is an MIS that supports auditing and logging.

[matt40k]

So you could create a trigger that if user who hasn't access the database via the application it then logs it (via a store procedure)? Umm... why hasn't Capita done this? Or maybe they have

[GREED]

So you could create a trigger that if user who hasn't access the database via the application it then logs it (via a store procedure)? Umm... why hasn't Capita done this? Or maybe they have

 

Performance overhead?

[jinnantonnixx]

Performance overhead?

 

Possibly. Ain't nothing free in this world. I do know, though, that triggers will work; we wrote a financial app using triggers to do something similar.

Edited February 27, 2012 by jinnantonnixx

[GREED]

Possibly. Ain't nothing free in this world. I do know, though, that triggers will work; we have a financial app using triggers to do something similar.

 

I am just forseeing how many triggers could be... err.. triggered given the right situation and could bring they system to a halt. Unlikely, but is likely to be a consideration.

[jinnantonnixx]

I am just forseeing how many triggers could be... err.. triggered given the right situation and could bring they system to a halt. Unlikely, but is likely to be a consideration.

 

Yeah..... probably best to test it first.

 

I'd suggest conduct log and attendance tables as good candidates.

 

 

I found this: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc164047.aspx#S4

which says as long as you don't do anything silly, and keep to row-sets, not cursors (a simple INSERT will be fine), trigger performance is OK.

Edited February 27, 2012 by jinnantonnixx