Moodle vs Fronter, need opinions

[kalinic]

I work in a 6th form college and just have managed to install and configure Moodle on our intranet and was intending to put it online.

However, a VLE by a company called Fronter is suddenly being pushed by the LGFL.

 

 

If I have to be perfectly honest, the whole deal just seems so dodgy for the following reasons:

 

- LGFL doesn’t mind which VLE we get, as long as it is Fronter (because then they get a group discount)

 

- Fronter presentations are vague and have poor detail. Actuall tehnical details are really being discussed nor they are mentioned on their website. They basically can't stop giving the salesman’s talk about how simple Fronter is, and what great features it has, and that it can work with SIMS (which is awful anyway) which basically only appeals to the school Heads who usually are IT illiterate and just want to please the teaching staff who have the same level of knowledge.

 

- LGFL is paying for a free 1 years installation and trial, which means low-tech capable people will get hooked on it and find it almost impossible to change over to a different VLE if Fronter is no good - follow the example of Edutrack and SIMS, which are both poor

 

- Any details involving costs are always discussed last and not present on Fronter's web site; i.e. year cost, upgrades cost, cost of the machine needing to run Fronter (if its ran on site rather than online), costs of additional modules

 

 

I might be wrong about all this as I haven't used Fronter myself, so I need opinions.

 

Thanks in advance

[Chafftech]

Where are you based? I am based in havering we had all the sales pitch - I have to say the product looks good and I know of schools that really rate it as single school VLE solution.

 

Having said that I agree more details are needed as this is a big project; an London wide sims integrated solution that allows students to move seamlessly from school to school and even LEA to LEA; and one that is going to be a bumpy ride at times I imagine.

[kalinic]

We're based in harrow. Have you had a look at Moodle at all?

 

It's free, and it pretty much does the same thing.

[rmarshall-bgsboys]

I am currently developing a moodle site for my school. I find it simple and easy to use - in fact it is too simple for me really, as i would rather FTP alot of my files to the site directly and then configure. The fact is, it can be used by none IT professionals.

 

Out of interest, how much is your school being charged for hosting for Moodle or your other VLE?

 

R

[GrumbleDook]

Hi Kalinic

 

Moodle and Fronter are different ... you need to start putting in ELGG (I mean EduSpaces) and maybe Plone / Zope to get the full effect.

 

However ... for most schools Moodle is all you need.

 

The thing to be careful of (and this is where I get flamed by people) is that by going seperate to the main group (ie LGfL) you risk missing out a heap of educational resources and opportunities. There are times when you have to accept that you are not using the best software but you are using some of the best resources.

 

It all depends on how much your school (and the teachers in it) want to share with others (ie steal resources from other schools in the area / collaborate!)

[Chafftech]

We're based in harrow. Have you had a look at Moodle at all?

 

It's free, and it pretty much does the same thing.

 

I have already implemented a moodle VLE at my current site, I have to admit it would be nice to get it off the current server as it is installed on windows 2000 member server that needs decomissioning really.

 

 

The ICT department like it and I believe it has helped with tracking of coursework / homework quite effectively. Not mention cut down on some of waste caused by excessive print outs.

 

Not everything in moodle is straight forward though, eg linking up to AD took me 2 days.

[e_g_r]

We are looking at all options currently and had Fronter in this week. They were very vague but answered most questions with 'yes'.

 

As Grumbledook says it may be better to go with the group and share (steal) resources than have your own setup.

 

One thing that springs to mind is what happens if your moodle/frog person up sticks and goes. Can their work be carried on.

 

Another + point for Fronter was the remote hosting, no additional expensive server purchases or hardware downtime that you can be blamed for. Not saying that we are looking to go the Fronter route, just one of its + sides for us.

[NewOrder]

Whats best is not really the question.

 

The question should be what is suitable for users.

 

Users I mean staff, parents and students not the IT department.

 

Learning platfroms are the foundation for us to change the way in which learning will develop not about which is preferable from the teckie perspective.

 

Sorry to be harsh its the facts of life. Grumbledock is right.

 

Think about this we can all cook a meal for a couple of people and it will be good ( install moodle) but can we cater for 600 ( federation of schools) ndifferent ball game folks. We may not have a varied choice or even the most exotic but hopefully its warm, delivered on time, plenty of it and we have some wine at the end

[GrumbleDook]

I like the meal analogy ... it works well :-)

 

I would further expand it actually to help point a few things out.

 

Imagine that you believe that your schools can do best with providing the right nutritional elements to your students and so you have your own catering firm with people with the right skills. You have Moodle.

 

This has been done because the county catering group just want to ram turkey twizzlers down the throughts of kids because it is a cheap way of getting something hot to students that looks ok to them, appears to be tasy but is just full of crap!

 

The difficult bit is to get a company that can do the good food as well as fitting it to a lot of schools ... even helping schools with their own staff to share reciepes ... and even swap chefs / cooks when needed.

 

If Jamie can do it, so can we ;-)

[kalinic]

Moodle is free.

Fronter is not. It costs thousands.

 

Fronter has a few extra features over moodle, but moodle isn't some package made by a handfull of geeks.

 

Also, if most schools were to take up moodle, the resources could be shared too. As an example, check out http://www.e-subjects.co.uk

 

Fronter is pushing its ability to link up with SIMS. Well SIMS is MSSQL, and there are free converters available to get it converted to MySQL. Besides, has anyone here had a pain free SIMS experience? That software package and their support is so poor. We're considering replacing it here.

 

I had some tough time figuring out IIS, MySQL, PHP and the whole Moodle installation and setup, and it took me weeks, but in the end I did figure it out, and Im not an IT expert. Fronter would mean easier life for me, when I got someone else to do most of my work.

 

However, I must be mad for thinking that taxpayers money should have some value to it.

It's not as if it's coming out of our pockets.

[kalinic]

To answer the rmarshall-bgsboys question:

 

We bought our own web server, and we intend to run it from here. It can also be ran over the network alone. We're just gonna make use of our 100mbit (synchronous) internet connection. I do not know how much we're paying for it as I think that the harrow council is taking care of that.

[Wizzer]

Moodle is free.

Fronter is not. It costs thousands.

 

 

Moodle software is free, but the system as a whole is not. You need hardware, staff time for installation and maintenance, training. I am a great advocate of Moodle (we use it here in our ICT dept and plan to make it school wide soon) but it certainly isn't free.

 

Also, if most schools were to take up moodle, the resources could be shared too. As an example, check out http://www.e-subjects.co.uk

 

This is a good point.

 

Isn't Fronter just a re-branded Digital Brain?

(I loathed Digital Brain with passion and it's one of the reasons I left my previous job. I'd spent 2 years developing the use of Moodle in the ICT department with support of the Head of Dept and Deputy Head in charge of ICT only to be told that I had to scrap it all because the school was now going to use Digital Brain in line with the County. That was 2 years ago, I think the school still doesn't have a VLE implemented!)

[GrumbleDook]

Fronter is *not* Digital Brain. They are 2 seperate companies with 2 seperate ways of dealing with Online Learning. LGfL will be running both as this is the method they prefer at the moment (and that is a seriously lengthy discussion!)

 

Dagza's site (http://www.e-subjects.co.uk) is wonderful and show what can happen when people share resources ... imagine what happens if hundreds of schools share resources. We wouldn't all be here if that wasn't the case ... and like Moodle this site is not free ...

 

There are always costs that get missed. Staff training, hardware, consumables (presuming you back things up!) ... a lot of these costs are part and parcel of what you buy into with a learning platform.

 

If a Moodle Solutions Provider (MoodleRooms, etc) had managed to get onto the Becta list do you think that it would have been free? Nope ... the costs would have been based on hardware, training, support and consultancy ...

 

Would it have been any cheaper that other providers? Possibly ... we don't know since those LAs / RBCs that are having Moodle as well actually roll some of the cost into other funding.

 

I am a Moodle Advocate but I would not say it is better than any other platform purely on cost ... it has to be decided on functionality. It has to be about what it does for your school and the staff & students in it.

[kalinic]

I agree with what you're saying. Moodle costs hardware and staff time.

However, for that money gets invested in a server that's here to stay for a while at least and can be used for other things if something better than moodle comes along.

With fronter you just pay for a yearly license. Nevermind the installation costs and paying for extras.

 

As for staff time, I'm the e-learning coordinator hired to work with an VLE. I could take fronter and train staff on it and then watch the shiny lights blink on our new piece of kit.

I however prefer to use the option that moodle gives you, which is to figure out stuff for yourself. I suppose most people prefer clockin on, daily grind, clocking off.

 

Yes there are companies that provide moodle consultancy, but you dont have to take it, everything is online, you just need to spend some time browsing, asking questions and learning things for yourself.

 

I'd also suggest anyone to spend some time creating comprehensive video tutorials for staff. They save loads of time on training.

[PeterS]

You are welcome to pass out the following complimentary pass. You can use it in training sessions, post on your blog/podcast or brush up on you own personal ICT Skills.

 

Moodle - http://www.atomiclearning.co.uk/moodle_wn

Vista - http://www.atomiclearning.co.uk/vista_wn

Office 2007 - http://www.atomiclearning.co.uk/office07_wn

 

Username: Vista

Password: atomic

All usernames and passwords are CaSe SeNsItIvE!

 

If you are looking for content for your VLE, integration of Atomic Learning is as easy as a simple web link: http://www.atomiclearning.co.uk/freealmovie?key=29299

 

Thank you and I hope you have an enjoyable summer.

[ThatBoringBloke]

We Run Fronter here and have done since 2004.

 

It works for us.

 

Tech support is spot on (rarely needed it).

 

It all depends on what you intend to use the platform to deliver. For us it was to enhance our communications, so all our email, Instant Messaging and messages go through it. Getting staff to use it as a learning platform is another matter entirely!

[sparkeh]

I recently attended a series of demos of the main players and (for us) Fronter is looking the best.

 

I am surprised to hear from the OP that the presentation wasn't good, perhaps it was just the person who turned up. The guy who presented Fronter for us was very knowledgeable and answered all our technical questions in some detail. In fact he was very impressive.

 

I was very impressed at the way Fronter holds user group meetings across Europe to incorporate user feedback into the next release (two releases a year). The whole approach of the company seemed very different from the others - the rest were "this is how the system is and you fit in with it" whereas Fronter was "tell us how you want it and we will fit in with you"

 

Moodle was ruled out at quite an early stage for a number of reasons. I feel that an established player has all the back up of experience and resources that you just don't have when starting from scratch. According to the stats, Fronter has been unavailable for 2 days in about 15 years (or around that). I'm honestly can't promise my schools that kind of uptime running our own Moodle.

 

Although these things aren't purely money oriented, it was a big sway that the LA cut a deal for very cheap subscription for the next few years and is paying setup costs.

 

Honestly, I would love to implement Moodle but just don't think its the right choice for us.

[svanvloten]

Good use of a blog, many issues.

 

I work with SE, FE and HE organisations on a number of VLE platforms, namely all those mentioned above, and think all point raised are very valid points. Bottom line for me and most other ppl though is the end user.

 

In education we are by and large dealing with a population of digital immigrants, i.e. technology is not and will not be a natural thing for them. With this in mind education decision makers, managers and practitioners are not the best ones to make decisions about technology per-se, but the do understand the issues of the end user - students, teachers, adminstration staff, community. If an application is easy for such people to use, and more importantly they WILL use it, then it cant be bad.

 

With regards to the Fronter marketintg strategy, take it or leave it. But the product is probably the most suited to te sector at its current stage of tech adoption.

 

With regards to the management of the technology itself, scalability and interoperability are key issues. And it is a concern that there are so many providers out there wanting to push their own proprietary wares - ad hoc implementation across the sector is a concern. I would aim to come up with some key evaluative terms with which to assess the pros and cons of any VLE or MLE - i.e scalability, interoperability, security, and other product support offered. And dont think too far ahead - tech moves too fast to go too far beyond a five year plan, budget for this.

 

With these points in mind, the cost benefit of LGfLs Fronter partnership is viable. Bearing in mind the average budget of 1000 student high school is about £3Million, £10-15K p/a on an MLE that Will be used is quite acceptable.

 

Regards to Moodle, it does offer more felxibility and is easy to use, but the interface is under-developed and depending on your host, it can be prohibilitvely slow. Further more who is there to fix it if there is a problem?; forget about WebCT, too expensive for this sector (and often unreliable); blackboard, same as moodle but less felxibility.

 

Reagrds to training, all change, be it technology or otherwise, requires training and upskilling.

 

Final word - the technology is secondary to managing the change: Manage the change, use the technology.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Face-Man]

I'm going on a five day training course on Fronter in a few weeks time and will post a sales pitch free review. I'm with Grumbledook "school meals" moddle has some big advanatages but when your "head chief" leaves and is replaced with a "burger and chips cook" it becomes unsustanable. Fronter did manage to beat off ms sharepoint and with BSF around the corner.....

[CyberNerd]

Moodle was ruled out at quite an early stage for a number of reasons. I feel that an established player has all the back up of experience and resources that you just don't have when starting from scratch. According to the stats, Fronter has been unavailable for 2 days in about 15 years (or around that). I'm honestly can't promise my schools that kind of uptime running our own Moodle.

 

I'm not sure why you think moodle isn't an established player, it's been around since 1999 has nearly 11 million users, it is the second most adopted VLE inthe world - second only to Blackboard - what are Fronters stats? It is Scorm compliant so educational resources should be an issue. There are also several companies that offer 99.9% uptime on moodle.

[wesleyw]

We've implemented moodle but we also have external support from a moodle development team. So if I for instance as the "head chef" left they wouldn't be up the creek without a paddle they'd have another boat to use lol analogy after analogy . I think in the end as long as the VLE does what you want then use it I have no problem with Fronter if it works for you then why worry? I used moodle so that I could get a VLE in quickly for the staff to practise creating content and getting their head round the idea which is more difficult that you'd think, the staff here aren't computer illerate or technophobic but when you've been teaching via whiteboards or blackboards then it takes some organising to create good VLE content not just a lesson plan a some notes but nearly an entirely virtual classroom environment. Also we can implement news things for the teachers and pupils quickly without waiting for a big company release them.

 

 

Wes

[sparkeh]

I'm not sure why you think moodle isn't an established player, it's been around since 1999 has nearly 11 million users, it is the second most adopted VLE inthe world - second only to Blackboard - what are Fronters stats? It is Scorm compliant so educational resources should be an issue. There are also several companies that offer 99.9% uptime on moodle.

 

Er, yes quite right, seems I didn't really say what I meant to be saying :oops:

 

Anyway the point was supposed to be over implementation issues. The choice with Moodle is whether you want to develop it yourself or have a third party involved. Although I would love to develop it is not the most sensible option for us, perhaps for some it is. Third party? Perhaps, but then you lose some of the benefits of the nature of Moodle as essentially you are waiting for your developers to implement the changes you request. Then you are straying into Fronter territory where they hold their user groups and implement requests as well (of course not as personally tailored of course).

 

When I said established players I was referring to the products that provide the whole service - implementation to maintenance. I should have been clearer.

 

As to stats: I believe that Fronter is the most used VLE in Europe.

[svanvloten]

Regards Moodle and its number of registered users, a significant number are recreational sites that have little or no bearing to Education, commercial or professional communities, I would half that 11 million figure.

 

Get what you pay for really, it is a peanuts and monkeys issue (although there are monkeys ... and there are monkeys).

 

Have a look at the online collabration providers to construction, law, facilities management etc,. These products are secure, simple and hosted, although they do lack some diversity and flexibility. Point being that each should chosse a product suited to a situational context.

 

I cant (and dont) see tech shy (and thats a vast majority of) teachers using Moodle because of the interface. I can see them using a more tailored and structured interface that can be found in proprietary products.

 

Use what suits your staff and your budget, bearing in mind what you need now and how those needs will change over the next 5 years.

[mighty.grey.eagle]

A few points. With regard to speed we have the advantage of hosting our Moodle installation in school - obviously faster than using any external connection. CLEO (our RBC) then reverse proxy it so that out of school hours it is still available and, because there are less users on it at any one time, speed is less of a consideration.

 

Our Moodle is running on Linux and "Geoff" makes it run smoothly. So what would happen if he left? I would hope that one of the other technicians could continue to make work but CLEO offer a external hosting solution so there is a fallback position. CLEO are also involved in various Moodle developments that will make it easier to use in a school environment.

 

Teaching staff don't find the Moodle interface difficult. Even the technophobes can add resources and link to websites. They may not use all of the features but I am sure that as they gain confidence they will.

 

As a final consideration I have seen so many presentations that promise the earth and, expensively, don't deliver. Moodle does deliver.

[webman]

svanvloten: I see you have a very narrow view of open source solutions ("you get what you pay for"). And from a 'company' (your www link) who does not publish an address on their website and provides a mobile number as a primary contact, I would take their comments with a pinch of salt.

 

You say proprietary products are 'secure, simple and hosted'. This is not exclusive to proprietary solutions - open source can be one or more of these, and more. You also say they 'do lack some diversity and flexibility' - this limitation is not present with open source as flexibility can be added as and when required, and can be as diverse as anyone wants them to be. This is the freedom that open source has by default; and is not available with proprietary offerings at all or without paying through the nose for so-called 'consultants' to recommend something above and beyond what was initially required.

 

May I ask what experience you've had with schools, learning platforms and VTLEs?