Private Schools

[glennda]

Teachers are on national pay scales. Support staff are not. £10k a term for the big independents (and AndrewC is at one of the oldest) is about normal, but pupils board.

 

Fees at my school are one third of the above figure with class sizes of 17 being regarded as the limit.

 

Independents are registered charities. We are non profit making, money earned is ploughed straight back into the school.

 

Numbers of staff are generally much higher at independents. We have fewer teaching assistants, but more admin, housekeeping and grounds staff.

 

They also tend to have specialist coaching staff for sports i.e a rugby coach, football coach, cricket coach etc

[elsiegee40]

... And specialist music, dance, art, drama, science, maths, language, etc teachers even in prep schools. This is the EES killer for us

[X-13]

Teachers are on national pay scales. Support staff are not. £10k a term for the big independents (and AndrewC is at one of the oldest) is about normal, but pupils board.

 

Fees at my school are one third of the above figure with class sizes of 17 being regarded as the limit.

 

Independents are registered charities. We are non profit making, money earned is ploughed straight back into the school.

 

Numbers of staff are generally much higher at independents. We have fewer teaching assistants, but more admin, housekeeping and grounds staff.

 

They also tend to have specialist coaching staff for sports i.e a rugby coach, football coach, cricket coach etc

 

... And specialist music, dance, art, drama, science, maths, language, etc teachers even in prep schools. This is the EES killer for us

 

I did not know this. Thank you for enlightening me. [/surprisingly_not_sarcastic]

[sidewinder]

Money certainly isn't too short where I work, but theres not so much sloshing around that it's wasted either. Quite a nice balance IMO - Plenty of cash to improve things but no massive pots of money that have to be spent on 'something, anything' either which is what wound me up about the state school I worked at - money was always being wasted on unnecessary crap just because it had to be used

 

Classes are usually 18-20 pupils here, so yeah smaller classes definately

[Andrew_C]

To put all your minds at rest; yes our 100+ teachers are well paid, and housed in Winchester (fearfully expensive), the class sizes are small (under 20, maybe 10 or fewer for an A level class). We have 700 pupils, the vast majority board. Lots and lots of extra curricular stuff, and the teachers (almost) all work from early morning until 11PM at least one day a week in a boarding house. Most of the teachers are out at least two afternoons with sports teams or training, on top of the professional level coaching. Oh yes, and Saturday morning lessons to. Grooo...

 

Amongst those teachers, there are two Russian teachers, a French and German teacher an with Oxford First, followed by a Sorbone degree. Many of the scientists (where I am now) have good science or engineering degrees (often Oxbridge). We also teach Latin, Chinese and Japanese to A level.

 

That level of investment in the children brings results, we've stopped publishing in the national league tables as the kids do too many GCSEs early, and we do a lot of "Pre-U" instead of A levels. However, the school is considered to be in the top 5 academically every year. Oh, and they do more than one subject, which also goes towards explaining the discrepency, but I've also been reminded that some of the fees does indeed go into the building upkeep etc. What we can't do at the moment is increase the endowment to protect the school in the future.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Andrew_C

[jamesfed]

Just out of intrest (may help the OP) do Private schools get Microsoft EES?

[elsiegee40]

They can have EES but the smaller schools like mine have too many staff to make it viable.

 

M$ define part time as 200 hours per year... Roughly 6 hours per week term time only.

 

We have more qualifying staff than computers which makes EES more expensive for us than schools agreement or standard licensing!

 

And, of course, we pay VAT on our licenses too.

[bodminman]

... And specialist music, dance, art, drama, science, maths, language, etc teachers even in prep schools. This is the EES killer for us

 

Cracking point!

 

I got the payroll lady to give me the number of staff working more than xxx hours etc and I was blown away when the figure came back as 130! We only have 380 kids and 130 PCs!

 

I love working in the independent sector. Prior to my current post I spent a very frustrating 2 years at a large state school up the road and prior to that 7 years at one of the largest/best independents in the country up in Manchester. I now feel more valued and appreciated and look forward to my line caught cod and chips every Friday in the canteen!

Edited December 3, 2011 by bodminman

[AngryTechnician]

As @elsiegee40 has pointed out, Prep schools don't have anywhere near the sort of cash that senior Independents do. The Prep school I work for ranges from around £7,000 up to a maximum of around £11,000 per year. Those fees are inclusive of meals, after-school care, and trips - even residentials. The only 'extras' parents have to pay for are uniform, basic stationery (i.e. pens), and PE equipment if the pupils want their own rather than using the school kit.

 

For us, EES did work out slightly cheaper than Schools Agreement - but not by anywhere near the sort of margin most state schools can expect. Still, its better than nothing. Remember that only staff who actually use a computer count - your cleaners probably work more than 200 hours a year, but you don't have to include them. In my experience resellers often don't know this, but this information was given to us personally at an Edugeek forum by the Education Business Manager for Microsoft UK in February, so I'm pretty sure its right.

[enjay]

£30,000 x 25 = £750,000.

 

Three quarters of a million, per class, per year.

 

Something doesn't add up.

 

What doesn't add up is that the pupils are not paying per class, as in your equation - their £30k covers all their classes, not just one; therefore you maths should not be £30k x %class_size%, but £30k x %pupil_count%.

 

Also, a figure like £30k says boarding school, so it also includes their food, heating, electricity, upkeep of boarding houses, staff for boarding hosues, etc. Then you need to factor in all the other staff which boarding schools have and day schools don't (night staff, house masters, nurses, additional catering staff, etc), plus all the specialist staff which schools of that ilk employ (sports coaches, music teachers, etc) and then the staff for subjects which aren't taught in other schools (more languages, Latin, wider choice of A-Level, etc). Beyond that, you need to add up the extra administrative and financial staff which private schools need to employ, as they can't pass anything to County.

 

Suddenly, £30k per pupil doesn't seem like all that much...

[X-13]

What doesn't add up is that the pupils are not paying per class, as in your equation - their £30k covers all their classes, not just one; therefore you maths should not be £30k x %class_size%, but £30k x %pupil_count%.

 

That's what I meant.

 

Not class as in English, Maths, Science, but Year+Teacher name [1D, 1E, 1S... etc]

 

It would equate to the same thing. [i think...]

[glennda]

What doesn't add up is that the pupils are not paying per class, as in your equation - their £30k covers all their classes, not just one; therefore you maths should not be £30k x %class_size%, but £30k x %pupil_count%.

 

Also, a figure like £30k says boarding school, so it also includes their food, heating, electricity, upkeep of boarding houses, staff for boarding hosues, etc. Then you need to factor in all the other staff which boarding schools have and day schools don't (night staff, house masters, nurses, additional catering staff, etc), plus all the specialist staff which schools of that ilk employ (sports coaches, music teachers, etc) and then the staff for subjects which aren't taught in other schools (more languages, Latin, wider choice of A-Level, etc). Beyond that, you need to add up the extra administrative and financial staff which private schools need to employ, as they can't pass anything to County.

 

Suddenly, £30k per pupil doesn't seem like all that much...

 

That is true but it is over 22 million per year for 750 kids, but thats why they "perform so well".

 

i'm not for or against it, just my experience of friends who have come out of private education is that because they are institutionalized they come out and go off the rails for a few years becuase they have no real world experience.

[enjay]

For us, EES did work out slightly cheaper than Schools Agreement - but not by anywhere near the sort of margin most state schools can expect. Still, its better than nothing. Remember that only staff who actually use a computer count - your cleaners probably work more than 200 hours a year, but you don't have to include them.

 

True, but... your site supervisor will have to be counted if they have use email, buy cleaning supplies online, etc. Similarly, the kitchen staff probably don't need counting, but the catering manager probably does. Also, two staff on an am/pm job share must both be counted. The real kick in the teeth with the headcount for EES is that it is anyone who works >200 hours per year and uses a computer, regardless of how many of those hours are actually spent at a computer. Therefore your peripatetic music teachers who type up pupil reports once a year must be counted (assuming you employ them of course).

[Andrew_C]

i'm not for or against it, just my experience of friends who have come out of private education is that because they are institutionalized they come out and go off the rails for a few years becuase they have no real world experience.

Tell me about it... They leave here, do a few years at OxBridge, then come back to teach!

 

I'm against the system in the sense that we shouldn't need it; the State system should provide an education that could stimulate the minds of these kids, in classes where the disaffected aren't throwing chairs around because the don't understand (or want to understand) basic maths/English/whatever. There should be schools/classes where those kids can be taught in appropriate ways too. The problem is that a truly "Comprehensive" school does not fit the need. Nor does the entire system as it stands. Thus there is a need for places like this.

 

The kids here (OK, most of them) would run rings around most of us intellectually. One of our better Physics teachers is a recent Army Air Corps helicopter pilot, and he dreads getting a class of scholarship boys.

[enjay]

I'm against the system in the sense that we shouldn't need it; the State system should provide an education that could stimulate the minds of these kids, in classes where the disaffected aren't throwing chairs around because the don't understand (or want to understand) basic maths/English/whatever. There should be schools/classes where those kids can be taught in appropriate ways too. The problem is that a truly "Comprehensive" school does not fit the need. Nor does the entire system as it stands. Thus there is a need for places like this.

 

At what cost? The fact of the matter is that the State system can't afford to educate every child in the country, not even in classes where kids throw furniture let alone in the sort of classes you describe.

[Andrew_C]

At what cost?

If you think education is expensive, try ignorance... How many schools do you think could be built and run for the cost of a new frigate (Frigates hunt submarines, how many of our enemies have submarines?) How about for the cost of two aircraft carriers? One of which will go straight into mothballs? Or bailing out banks, who then give huge bonuses to the very people who crippled them in the first place? Oh yes, we CAN afford good education, but will we?

[sidewinder]

I now feel more valued and appreciated and look forward to my line caught cod and chips every Friday in the canteen!

 

Ah yes, I forgot about the #1 reason why I prefer working here - lunch (and it is decent food) provided free every day

[elsiegee40]

I have to say that our food is excellent too

[Andrew_C]

There is no such thing as a free lunch. If I want to eat the boys' food, I have to sit at a table with them, and try to engage them in conversation... OK, if they are interested/ing, but a bunch of sulky 15/16 year olds... Nah, happy to buy my lunch!

 

That said, the food can be very good indeed!

[enjay]

lunch provided free every day

Doesn't that make it taxable? Just a thought...

[X-13]

I have to say that our food is excellent too

 

Nothing beats fried chicken and chips.

[elsiegee40]

There is no such thing as a free lunch. If I want to eat the boys' food, I have to sit at a table with them, and try to engage them in conversation... OK, if they are interested/ing, but a bunch of sulky 15/16 year olds... Nah, happy to buy my lunch!

 

That said, the food can be very good indeed!

 

That's the upside of preps... fewer hormonal kids!

[enjay]

There is no such thing as a free lunch. If I want to eat the boys' food, I have to sit at a table with them, and try to engage them in conversation... OK, if they are interested/ing, but a bunch of sulky 15/16 year olds... Nah, happy to buy my lunch!

We can buy ours from the Canteen and then take it back to the Staff Room to eat. Best of both worlds :-)

[sidewinder]

Doesn't that make it taxable? Just a thought...

 

Don't know, nothing is sold at all though so it's not 'free' as such, just included, the same as it is for the pupils in their school fees.

[enjay]

Don't know, nothing is sold at all though so it's not 'free' as such, just included, the same as it is for the pupils in their school fees.

 

Yes, but the difference between you and the pupils is that they are paying for it bundled in with their fees, you are being given it for free.