[sims] Academies, 'new' SIMS licenses and the EU concept of 'Exhaustion rights'

[CyberNerd]

They are currently with another 'popular' MIS Supplier and their 'contract' is due for renewal. Apparantly they can save money, over 5 years, by moving to SIMS!

 

Capita obviously didn't mention the costs of keeping up to date with the prerequisites that sims requires - SQL upgrades, Windows Upgrades (yes they forced some LA's off W2k back in the day, CALs, MSOffice upgrades and the ridiculous system requirements of Discover.

[EdWhittaker]

Yep! Maybe so!

But with the risk of losing funtionality!

Or, in this case, not getting the extra functionality that SIMS would bring!

 

Of course this is true; but please see my earlier point regarding early adopters, above. The extra functionality will build with time and as the userbase increases. If no-one takes it on because it doesn't have all the bells and whistles right now, then of course it never will have. If we wait for a complete and total replacement for SIMS (Integris, CMIS etc) then we're likely to wait a long time. I'm sure, in the current economic climate and with so many schools converting to academies, there will be plenty of schools willing to compromise functionality for price. I also think that many head teachers are aware that by working in collaboration with smaller providers to develop functionality, they are more likely to get something that suits their needs.

 

The introduction of competition into the MIS market will be good for everyone, including SIMS users. If competition means that SIMS has to be priced more keenly and has to become more reliable and user friendly, then SIMSophiles will be happier too! However, currently there is little incentive for major providers to change.

[GrumbleDook]

Most MIS (as with many things out there) will do what the school wants, or can do what the school needs. The amount of change involved going from one particular implementation to another will vary, depending on staff, time, resources for training and the strategy of SLT at the school.

 

For many SIMS ticks the boxes and then some ... but even then, few schools make the full use of the SIMS ... and swapping to another MIS to get features can just mean that they have not looked hard enough at what they already have.

 

For some other schools, the amount of effort required to take full control of the MIS is outweighed by the ease which particular products do certain tasks, and so they will look to move away. Sometimes this is linked with cost savings (not just in the MIS costs, but in staffing, training, teacher time, etc) and other times it is down to someone up the chain wanting to change ... often to support a particular agenda of change with a school. In the past this could have been around pupil reporting (not specifically online reporting but linked to AfL and other areas), timetabling, attendance and many more. Then when SLT changed you can sometimes find the agenda and needs of the school changes. @SpuffMonkey put this as 3 years in a recent post ...

 

There is no right or wrong MIS. This is no right or wrong way of using it. Whatever fits your schools needs is fine ... but just try to make sure that you are not sticking with one MIS on the grounds it is the only one that does something or that it is too complex to change, but in the same way ... don't just change because it will be better elsewhere, it is *bound* to save you money or the latest ideas for SLT will be around *forever*!

 

It is good to hear people taking a lot of time and putting a lot of effort into their choices ... I wish more schools did that about a *wide* range of things.

[localzuk]

I have been contacted by Capita to ask if I would host a visit from a school based not that far from here, to see our SIMS in action. They are currently with another 'popular' MIS Supplier and their 'contract' is due for renewal. Apparantly they can save money, over 5 years, by moving to SIMS!

 

Having said that, the school has not yet contacted me and so I do not know which of the packages they have been quoted for!

 

I really don't see how. I've had quotes from a list of companies, and none of them, even over 5 years, come close to the cost of SIMS.net. As CyberNerd says, look at the requirements too and it is an easy choice. Shame our school decided to stick with SIMS.net for now, as we're too busy during the changeover to academy status to think about changing! In the future though, I've been told we will be looking to change, as we are sick of the cost.

[Sivadam]

One smiles with amusement!

Until I have further details I can only repeat what I have been told!

 

As for what may be missing in other systems, then the recent additions to SIMS of Alternative Curriculum and Discover are just a couple that may be worth a mention.

Then again - other systems may already have this functionality anyway! I am sure there are many waiting to pounce on me again!

[EdWhittaker]

 

For many SIMS ticks the boxes and then some ... but even then, few schools make the full use of the SIMS ... and swapping to another MIS to get features can just mean that they have not looked hard enough at what they already have.

 

For some other schools, the amount of effort required to take full control of the MIS is outweighed by the ease which particular products do certain tasks, and so they will look to move away...

 

True, but it's not just 'what' it's also 'how'. Let me give a little example: last September two of our schools stopped using our product because they were told that SIMS could do it. True, it could ... in a way. It was so difficult for class teachers to use SIMS they just didn't bother and the school managers found that they couldn't get the type of analysis they wanted out of it. Both schools have now stopped using SIMS and have come back to us.

It simply isn't enough to look at a list of features and compare systems by what it says in the brochure. Two systems may be comparable on paper, but differ wildly in useability.

[Sivadam]

.... We saw three products (and considered three others). The three we saw were all web based so no need to have software on PCs and had lots and lots of good features.......

 

With the state of our Internet Connection, via YHGfL, then that would rapidly kick out all those three options!

[localzuk]

With the state of our Internet Connection, via YHGfL, then that would rapidly kick out all those three options!

 

Web based != Externally hosted. Ok, for some it does, but for others it doesn't. And maybe spending more on your internet connection, and then going for a cheaper solution that is externally hosted/web based might give a better service...

[Sivadam]

........ Let me give a little example: last September two of our schools stopped using our product because they were told that SIMS could do it. True, it could ... in a way. It was so difficult for class teachers to use SIMS they just didn't bother and the school managers found that they couldn't get the type of analysis they wanted out of it.....

Unbelievable!

As has been said many, many times. No matter what the system is then it will be no good in not used efficiently!

SIMS is specifically aimed at Teachers in the Classroom! If the Admins cannot set it up in the background to work for Teachers then that is NOT the fault of the system!

[Sivadam]

..... And maybe spending more on your internet connection, and then going for a cheaper solution that is externally hosted/web based might give a better service...

Myself and my technical expert have been trying for years to pursuade the school to opt out of the current provider and buy in our own ISP. It would actually be cheaper AND more efficient!

But that is another story!

[EdWhittaker]

Unbelievable!

 

But true, nonetheless ;-)

[Anjelica]

With the state of our Internet Connection, via YHGfL, then that would rapidly kick out all those three options!

 

Web frontend but hosted in school. All the advantages and none of the disadvantages. I was one of the few Oxfordshire schools that refused to be centally hosted by the LA because we can't rely on the connection - I wouldn't dream of externally hosting.

[GrumbleDook]

@edwhittaker as far as I am concerned, the choice to use any system or application has to consider "what", "how" and "why". They go hand in hand (in hand). That is why I put in the point about the ease with which some products do certain things outweighing the effort to take control of other systems. Whilst I am all for making life easy, for people using intuitive systems and for minimal effort for maximum efficiency ... just because something is difficult to do in one area it does not mean that a system should be thrown away if it has sizeable benefits in others.

 

Rather than get into specifics of MIS vendors and products (as I truly have no preference) let us look at examples in other areas. Some desktop manufacturers have gone down the route of making more parts customer replaceable. The ease in which you can strip down Dell kit is an example. This is beneficial to speedy replacement of faulty parts, helpful to IT teams getting kit back on the desk and means that a company can employ low-end staff to do basic repairs (ie just swap faulty kit out). It might be, though, that it is the wrong form factor ... that the extra power brick some USFF kit has means that the desks have to be changed to safely store it away ... that when it is mounted in a certain way it makes it hard to put USB devices in to it (seen this when mounted under a desk) and introduces a chance that inquisitive hands can get into the kit to pinch parts (RAM, etc).

 

Ease in one area can cause issues in others.

 

One of the largest causes for swapping back MIS is poor change management. This will range from lack of communication with staff, poor training, lack of documentation, discussions about the needs of the school with the MIS provider being too narrow (predominantly the fault of the school rather than the provider) and scope / project creep. In fact, this is a major fault of *any* project when run poorly ... but MIS change is a perfect example.

 

A school which doesn't know what it wants to do with data can sometimes look to a new MIS provider to give them the answers. Some MIS providers can make a massive difference here, and the benefits outweigh the pain of change, or possible limitations / differences in certain tools.

[matt40k]

I wouldn't move away from the LA broadband @Sivadam - all it takes is for someone to claim you were downloading adult\illegal material and you could be waving goodbye to a career using a computer (unless you can find an ISP that will prove filtering at the other end).

 

PS: I think @Sivadam made @PhilNeal cry, he was dreaming of SIMS Azure (ok maybe FMS Azure first).

[Sivadam]

But true, nonetheless ;-)

 

True that the school moved?

True that the Teachers did not understand how to use SIMS?

True that the Admins did not know how to set up SIMS?

 

True that I don't know what I am talking about?

Where have all the other hornets gone? I thought I would hear a larger 'buzzing' noise than this!

 

Hopefully I'll get a few Red Squares back now!!!!!

Edited June 7, 2011 by Sivadam

[Sivadam]

I wouldn't move away from the LA broadband @Sivadam - all it takes is for someone to claim you were downloading adult\illegal material and you could be waving goodbye to a career using a computer (unless you can find an ISP that will prove filtering at the other end).

That's what has frightened everybody and so we have not changed! But it does show what we have had to put up with for years!

[matt40k]

True that the school moved?

True that the Teachers did not understand how to use SIMS?

True that the Admins did not know how to set up SIMS?

 

Are you trying to hint at you need to remember to include the cost of training in the cost of the MIS package?

PS: Don't forget the staffing costs, staff get paid to seat in that £1,000 a day Capita training

[Sivadam]

I do all the Training here! It costs 'nowt'! (Comment Edited - 99% Cost - almost 'nowt'!)

And I get my knowledge by the number of Software meetings, UAT meetings and workshops that I attend!

And from SupportNet Forums of course. The wealth of experience there is vast!

And that is my real value - contrary to the innacurate personal comment that somebody posted on here some while ago!

Edited June 7, 2011 by Sivadam

[matt40k]

I expect to see a training flyer when you "retire" mate

[EdWhittaker]

@edwhittaker as far as I am concerned, the choice to use any system or application has to consider "what", "how" and "why". They go hand in hand (in hand). That is why I put in the point about the ease with which some products do certain things outweighing the effort to take control of other systems. Whilst I am all for making life easy, for people using intuitive systems and for minimal effort for maximum efficiency ... just because something is difficult to do in one area it does not mean that a system should be thrown away if it has sizeable benefits in others.

Absolutely, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. You have to take each system in it's totality. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear; the schools I referred to above didn't drop SIMS altogether, just stopped using it for behaviour.

 

One of the largest causes for swapping back MIS is poor change management. This will range from lack of communication with staff, poor training, lack of documentation, discussions about the needs of the school with the MIS provider being too narrow (predominantly the fault of the school rather than the provider) and scope / project creep. In fact, this is a major fault of *any* project when run poorly ... but MIS change is a perfect example.

 

I agree that many schools have not got their MIS set up properly and don't use them to their fullest advantage. I think you may find that some schools could save money by getting someone in to optimise their current MIS rather than changing provider.

[Sivadam]

I expect to see a training flyer when you "retire" mate

It's all on SupportNet Forums - Schools Section.

I doubt you can see my contributions there as you will get the LA view as opposed to the School view, in the same way that I cannot see your version. I have always said that this is a great pity. LA Support Units can learn a great deal from high end school users in the same way that Schools can learn from efficient and knowledgable LA Support Units.

When we mix at UAT workshops etc then this point is well emphasised! But it seems that never the twain shall meet on the SupportNet Forums! With the one exception that is!

[matt40k]

We did ask for it as well as part of the Supportnet redesign, actually what happened to that?

[Sivadam]

We did ask for it as well as part of the Supportnet redesign, actually what happened to that?

Great minds think ......

I did as well.

It's about time us school bods started to teach you LA Support guys how to use SIMS correctly! (Now if that doesn't get rid of those infernal green squares then 'nowt' will!)

 

Goodness knows what happened to the re-design - maybe it was because I did not want to lose my Post count? Or that my previous record would disappear - just as it did on 12/08/2003 with the last re-design! Or the fact that I said how good Solution Search is (contrary to what many edugeek users try to tell me!)!

[creese]

It's about time us school bods started to teach you LA Support guys how to use SIMS correctly! (Now if that doesn't get rid of those infernal green squares then 'nowt' will!)

 

That's where your thinking goes astray, the LA doesn't "use" SIMS, it "Supports" the problems.

 

And just for that I'm going to contribute to you green decor

[Sivadam]

Yes, but you do need to know how to use SIMS correctly as one of your roles is to show your School Users exactly that!

If you don't know how to SIMS then how can you pass that knowledge on?

So my thinking is, once again, totally accurate!

 

Maybe I have to change tactics. If I compliment you will you remove those green squares? We can always pretend that the compliment is abuse and so you can then report me, as others have done!

 

I think you LA guys are all wonderfull! (that should do for starters!)

Edited June 8, 2011 by Sivadam