[sims] Academies, 'new' SIMS licenses and the EU concept of 'Exhaustion rights'

[GrumbleDook]

So what if the school goes back to the LA support team after becoming an academy and says "Hey, can we subscribe to your SIMS expertise and support and use your licence please? Here is some money."

 

Then the LA will probably sell it to them as a traded service, at a higher price and with a different SLA to that given to LA schools. The ability to use the LA licence I am not too sure about. IIRC this would be a no-no unless the Academy is listed as one of the schools under the agreement when negotiated / purchased. I know this is an area some LAs are being careful of, not just for MIS but for other areas where they are operating as a traded service.

[Banjo]

Then the LA will probably sell it to them as a traded service, at a higher price and with a different SLA to that given to LA schools. The ability to use the LA licence I am not too sure about. IIRC this would be a no-no unless the Academy is listed as one of the schools under the agreement when negotiated / purchased. I know this is an area some LAs are being careful of, not just for MIS but for other areas where they are operating as a traded service.

 

Academies cannot buy a Sims licence/AM from their LA, they have to go to Capita for that. They can however buy their support from their LA and they then appear on Schools-Manager. LA's can then reclaim 20% of the annual maintenance for that academy(s) from Capita.

[jayemm]

Ok as I have said before. School is licenced through original LA scheme, and gets support from LA.

 

What happens when the school become a SIMS direct site? AFAIK the licences transfer to the school do they not as support is paid direct to capita and nothing to the LA. If this school then becomes an Academy then surely they already have the licence and dont need to pay over the odds?

 

Phil surely you see that this is morally wrong? New style academies retain the same DfE/DFES/DCSF number, they do not close and reopen they just change type of school. Do schools that become Trust schools have to follow the same re-licence? I can fully understand your novate clause but surely in this instance you can see that the end user/institution is the same not different!

[Banjo]

Ok as I have said before. School is licenced through original LA scheme, and gets support from LA.

 

What happens when the school become a SIMS direct site? AFAIK the licences transfer to the school do they not as support is paid direct to capita and nothing to the LA. If this school then becomes an Academy then surely they already have the licence and dont need to pay over the odds?

 

Phil surely you see that this is morally wrong? New style academies retain the same DfE/DFES/DCSF number, they do not close and reopen they just change type of school. Do schools that become Trust schools have to follow the same re-licence? I can fully understand your novate clause but surely in this instance you can see that the end user/institution is the same not different!

 

RM don't recharge schools when they move to academies.

[Anjelica]

Looks like we get to join this debate after all. Last week we had a visit from Capita to inform us that we would need to buy licences etc - Total cost for Year 1 about 21k then 14k+ Year 2 onwards (Annual Entitlement + Support). The Governing Body have told the SMT to look into another MIS; we are after all spending public money and have to be seen to be getting best value. We had our first demo today and have another one later in the week. All quotes have so far come out cheaper from Year 4 onwards. The product viewed today was browser based and is even upgraded automatically by the company concerned (our biggest worry as our LA refuses to support the Sims upgrade process).

 

For myself - I had thought I would using Sims until I retire but now it looks like this old dog is going to have to learn some new tricks. Oh yes and I'll be in the high Arctic while it's all going on!!!!

[Banjo]

Looks like we get to join this debate after all. Last week we had a visit from Capita to inform us that we would need to buy licences etc - Total cost for Year 1 about 21k then 14k+ Year 2 onwards (Annual Entitlement + Support). The Governing Body have told the SMT to look into another MIS; we are after all spending public money and have to be seen to be getting best value. We had our first demo today and have another one later in the week. All quotes have so far come out cheaper from Year 4 onwards. The product viewed today was browser based and is even upgraded automatically by the company concerned (our biggest worry as our LA refuses to support the Sims upgrade process).

 

For myself - I had thought I would using Sims until I retire but now it looks like this old dog is going to have to learn some new tricks. Oh yes and I'll be in the high Arctic while it's all going on!!!!

 

How much of that £21k was training and onsite support? (~£1200 a day) Unless you are planning to use FMS then you don't really need that provision.

 

Does your LA not help you now with upgrades or are unwilling to after you move to an Academy?

[Anjelica]

The 21k is purely re-licensing plus annual entitlement (there is an early bird discount in there of a couple of K). Our Annuall Entitlement doesn't cover support so we will have to buy that too year on year. There is no training / on site support in the package.

 

Our LA run what they call Central Sims - they host the database, backups etc. We didn't buy in because they couldn't do SLG (we were one of the very first schools to use it) - they can do it now but as we had already bought the kit and spent time getting it working we stayed standalone. There was some jiggery-pokerey a few years ago and we were "persuaded" to buy their support. Turned out that because they upgraded all the other schools centrally they didn't think it was fair that we got upgrade support from them when the other schools didn't so they refused to help. Now tell me guys, "when is it that your support contract really pays?" - when you are upgrading the system!!

 

Interestingly we are now also talking to ISAMS - they want to get into the state sector. Watch this space.

[Banjo]

It might be worth talking to the LA again. The LA can claim back 20% of your AM that you pay Capita on top of the support that you buy from them. Ask them if the £1500-£2000 extra they will get from supporting you (cash back from Capita) will cover the upgrade process?

[resin1]

The quandary I'm seeing with respect to a Phase 2 conversion, is that, as I understand it - the application process can be complete with 3-4 months (or maybe less?) and the desire from management to get up and running as an Academy asap can be understable with respect to access to funding and freedoms, so they will not want to wait.

 

Then you get this situation with Capita and the obvious thing you'd want to do is take a fresh look at the market, compare pricing and capability and decide if there is merit for change. But even if you had the time to do that, and initial cost wise it looked favourable - the time pressure I just mentioned could well mean that you could not do all of that, and plan in an appropriate time to migrate from your existing MIS to another (lets assume always the summer break?), within the short window that management then decide as the time prior to Academy "go"!

 

So you end up paying out to stick with what you have cos it's the least risk scenario and the only path feasible in the timeframe.

 

Capita must be laughing all the way to the bank on this one.

[PhilNeal]

Anjelica if you already hold a SIMS licence in your own name there is only a nominal transfer fee. Our AM quote would include support from Capita.

 

The other important factor is that if you are under an LA they can claim back the AM they have paid and they might pay that back to you. I would have expected your licence charge to be around £12K.

[PhilNeal]

Resin1 you should not assume that academies are a no cost extenstion for Capita far from it; the disaggregation costs are huge.

[Anjelica]

Phil: We hold our own licence for SLG but your people say that doesn't count. We asked the question about how much support was available with the Annual Entitlement and we haven't had an answer. £12k - I think that's what I said plus somewhere around that again for Annual Entitlement in Year 1

[PhilNeal]

Thanks Anjelica - the team is right about SLG not being enough but they shouldn't be charging that as its in your own name already. The refund from the LA is an important figure.

[resin1]

Resin1 you should not assume that academies are a no cost extenstion for Capita far from it; the disaggregation costs are huge.

 

Wasn't trying to imply that it's easy money per se - just highlighting that local factors that arn't your making, like the imposed time pressures from eager schools management, could actually lead to you retaining more customers than if due process could be followed in a decent timeframe to consider what the "new establishment" wanted to do. I'm well aware that an existing customer could very much still decide that SIMS is as good as anything out there if they followed that process, but forcing themselves into a situation where there is no time to do that, and still have to spend money on re-licensing, is clearly their problem but somewhat of a gift for you :-)

[PhilNeal]

Sorry resin1 didn't mean to be defense.

[Sivadam]

Angelica,

 

You are a SIMS Direct School are you not?

 

As far as I am aware, and from what Phil has posted here a number of times, I believe that the cost of novating your licences is in the order of £300, should you wish to retain exactly what you have at the moment.

The Annual Costs should then be the approx the same as you pay now.

 

Or have a misunderstood something in your circumstances?

 

I think that you need to contact Capita Sales again before you make a big mistake, by moving for the wrong reasons!

[Anjelica]

We thought we were once but when Capita came to see us last week they said not. We have nothing to prove it either way (except the rememberings of my ex-boss long retired). I thought that we were when I started 17 years ago then a few years back we moved to LA support but it seems from CES that they believe the LA held the licences all along.

[Sivadam]

Hmmmmmmmmm.........

 

That all sounds very strange to me. I think that 'jiggery-pokerey' just about sums it up!

 

If you were paying for SIMS direct to Capita then you must have had a SIMS Direct Licence. Do you use FMS? If so then the records of payment for the licences should still be there. And you can still access the old DOS programs via SIMS Launcher! I did exactly that not so long ago! So you can go back a long way if you so wished!

 

If you did have the licences at one time then surely they would still be valid for SIMS Core at least? I doubt you could give them away to the LA!

Edited May 24, 2011 by Sivadam

[Banjo]

Hmmmmmmmmm.........

 

That all sounds very strange to me. I think that 'jiggery-pokerey' just about sums it up!

 

If you were paying for SIMS direct to Capita then you must have had a SIMS Direct Licence. Do you use FMS? If so then the records of payment for the licences should still be there. And you can still access the old DOS programs via SIMS Launcher! I did exactly that not so long ago! So you can go back a long way if you so wished!

 

If you did have the licences at one time then surely they would still be valid for SIMS Core at least? I doubt you could give them away to the LA!

 

 

My understanding is that a school can move from LA to be supported direct with Capita and pay Bedford their AM, but their original licence (bought once) remains with the LA. Only when the school becomes an Academy does the licence become as issue and have to be re purchased. If the SLG was purchased after the move away from the LA then this should be transferable to the new school for the £300 admin fee.

[Anjelica]

Update on finding a new MIS: How many Sims users have been begging for a system to do registers for after school clubs, classes & sports teams? Well folks - all the competitors so far, do it as standard!! One more to see tomorrow then it will be time to decide (or at least shortlist).

[EdWhittaker]

Please do keep us posted Anjelica, I'll be really interested to see how it pans out in the end.

[Anjelica]

It's been a real eye opener - not what I expected. Whilst cost isn't everything we've based our costings on a 5 year plan. It's amazing but there is over 30K between top and bottom quotes. We've tried to do it on a like for like basis. We have to factor our winning quote (when we get there) against the hassle free "stay with Sims option" and then hopefully we will make the right decision. Well, at the end of the day, it will be the Governors decision - we will see. Watch this space

[matt40k]

Shame BECTA or someone couldn't do this. An independent review of features and cost which is publically accessible with a customable weighting system.

 

 

Team Edugeek to the rescue?

[GrumbleDook]

There is a review happening for a framework from DoE. Threads have already covered that and yes, it is on the backing of earlier work done by Becta.

[EdWhittaker]

Perhaps, just perhaps, if Becta had done more to encourage innovative, inexpensive solutions from smaller suppliers instead of cosying up to the big guys all time they might not have got the chop.