RemoteFX backend for thin clients?

[morganw]

Does anyone know if RemoteFX is suitable for use as a general multimedia accelerator for Remote Desktop sessions? After reading about it I thought it was but then I've also read about Citrix integrating it into their HDX system, wouldn't that be overlapping similar technologies? Or is RemoteFX meant to be more focused on 3D acceleration?

 

At the moment we've dipped a toe into thin clients with 16 XenApp licenses, I'm wandering whether it's worth trying a similar kind of deployment with RemoteFX instead. I can't see anywhere that says RemoteFX costs anything extra on top of the standard Remote Desktop CALs so it would work out a lot cheaper if it can handle the usual flash websites.

 

Anyone else considering something like this?

[SYNACK]

The benifit of RemoteFX is that it uses serverside 3D acceleration and so you can use lower spec clients that have an RDP client that supports RDP7 (not linux yet). Given the way it renders stuff on the server and the already robust protocols in 2008 R2 is whould be good for most media (consuming). You do need (as far as I know) workstation CAD type GPUs like nvidia Quadro cards in your servers to handle this though as these are much more tested and reliable than the consumer grade ones (apparently, but not from my experience).

 

You are right that it does not need anything more than RDP cals and they are apparently releasing a really thin version of Windows 7 free for VL customers so that they can upgrade compatible thin clients to be able to support it fully.

 

I am looking at this with great interest for our MPS servers but hopeing that they drop the CAD card restriction which seems a little like profiteering collusion to me at the moment.

[3s-gtech]

Main difference with workstation GPUs is pixel precision and image quality, and better OpenGL performance. The drivers are usually more stable and mature. For this job though, I suspect desktop cards will do fine, as long as they have enough power. Not sure where you'd get the 6 and 8 pin PCI-E connectors from for additional power inside the server though, not usually spare molex connectors sitting around!

[Arthur]

Does anyone know if RemoteFX is suitable for use as a general multimedia accelerator for Remote Desktop sessions?

Short answer is yes...

 

What can it do?

Anything! Well, from a display perspective at least. This is the really cool part. Since to the virtual desktop and its applications it appears that a “normal” GPU is available, almost all content can be rendered. RemoteFX is like a catch-all. Basically all kinds of “desktop content” can be viewed in near full fidelity in your virtual desktop.

 

For reference, these are examples of content that currently aren’t able to be delivered in full fidelity in today’s RDP version (7.0):

 

• Flash
  
• Silverlight
  
• HTML5
  
• Non-Windows Media format movies (many QuickTime movies still won’t play, for example)
  
• 3D applications

RemoteFX solves all that... if you have the bandwidth. Again, because it is catch-all you can deliver almost any content type using RemoteFX. Think of content like this:

 

• Office 2010
  
• Full Aero desktop experience
  
• Flash
  
• Silverlight
  
• HTML5
  
• Any media format you can think of
  
• 3D applications

 

What’s less cool?

Of course RemoteFX isn’t the most brilliant thing since the seedless watermelon but it is pretty darn close! There are a couple of characteristics – I would not call them drawbacks – which you have to be aware of though:

 

• LAN only. Out of the box RemoteFX is a LAN technology only. Period. Microsoft is not being vague or secretive about this. Without a 10 Mbps of network bandwidth and latencies above 20ms it is not recommended to use RemoteFX. As is common, Microsoft points to the (software) RemoteFX partners for more than this out of the box functionality. Quest has announced that vWorkspace is slated to extend the reach of RemoteFX beyond the LAN within 30 days of the shipping date of Service Pack 1 (Brian Madden has published a preview of this). Similarly, Citrix (Harry Labana) has announced that they will be supporting RemoteFX approximately 6 months after Service Pack 1 ships.
  
• Need for a GPU. You need a GPU in the Hyper-V host. Remember this is not just any GPU you get at your local geekshop – you need a server-class GPU with at least 1 GB of (V)RAM. Depending on your use case, you might even need more VRAM and/or more GPUs. The actual VRAM could be as low as 75 MB or greater than 200, depending on the resolutions in your VM. These guys don’t come cheap either but are expected to drop in price over time. The good news is that RemoteFX supports multiple GPUs in one server (provided they are the same). RemoteFX also supports so-called external “GPU Appliances”.
  
• (Possibly) no 7.1 RDP Client for Windows XP. This article was written based on the beta of RemoteFX which includes RDC 7.1 for Vista and Windows 7 but not retail XP. At TechEd Microsoft could not say whether there would be a 7.1 RDP Client for Windows XP.
  
• No OpenGL. Well, I said that RemoteFX could deliver almost any content type. Not all. OpenGL is an example of this. Because the RemoteFX 3D display adapter driver in the virtual desktop is based on DirectX, it will not support OpenGL apps beyond what Windows natively supports.
  
• Hyper-V R2 SP1 only. You cannot use any other hypervisor than Hyper-V R2 SP1. Although it is pretty clear why Microsoft is doing this some people might perceive this to be a disadvantage of RemoteFX.
  
• Windows 7 SP1 only. Windows 7 SP1 is the only supported Guest OS (the virtual desktop) if you want to use the user experience enhancements of RemoteFX.

(Source)

 

I've also read about Citrix integrating it into their HDX system, wouldn't that be overlapping similar technologies?

From the same website as the quote above...

 

A question that I get a lot as well is if I think if RemoteFX will replace all other remote display protocols such as Quest EOP or Citrix HDX. I think RemoteFX will not replace these protocols. Even though there is some overlap – in particular, RemoteFX is similar to Citrix HDX 3D Pro – Microsoft has created an ecosystem around RemoteFX that allows for partners to embrace and extend RemoteFX. It is much more likely that RemoteFX will be supported by protocols from these, and other, vendors, who will continue to extend and enhance Microsoft’s Remote Desktop platforms.

[morganw]

I hope the GPU isn't required to make it go, I'm not looking for 3D acceleration or a full 'this is your personal Windows 7 VM' style VDI system, just decent multimedia acceleration of everything that is more cost effective than XenApp.

[SYNACK]

I hope the GPU isn't required to make it go, I'm not looking for 3D acceleration or a full 'this is your personal Windows 7 VM' style VDI system, just decent multimedia acceleration of everything that is more cost effective than XenApp.

 

To use RemoteFX, yea you do need the server side 3D support, thats kind of the point.

 

To use standard RDP7 from a 2008 R2 server which will handle video (wmv, xvid, h264) and sound smoothly no, you just need thinclients that support RDP7 so your average *nix based TC is out unless you upgrade it with the thin Windows version.

[morganw]

Is there any information anywhere on a thin version of Windows 7?

[SYNACK]

Is there any information anywhere on a thin version of Windows 7?

 

Microsoft readies locked-down Windows 7 Thin PCs | ZDNet

Windows 7 updates deliver more bang for your buck

[localzuk]

I hope the GPU isn't required to make it go, I'm not looking for 3D acceleration or a full 'this is your personal Windows 7 VM' style VDI system, just decent multimedia acceleration of everything that is more cost effective than XenApp.

 

The point is, its the graphics card which does the acceleration, even on desktops. Hence the need for the GPU.

[gshaw]

I thought there was a CPU-only acceleration option as well for servers without the GPU?

 

Realistically though who has graphics cards in their current kit? Could be a while before we all refresh our hardware to take advantage of it. Also seems like MS aren't going to go the whole hog with VDI as they don't want to step on the toes of Citrix (seems like there's a mutually beneficial agreement going on there)

 

I was looking at RemoteFX as one of the reasons for going down the Hyper-V route rather than VMware but I'm not sure that on its own is enough to make me go for it against VMWare's simpler configuration and reliability...

Edited February 16, 2011 by gshaw

[SYNACK]

Realistically though who has graphics cards in their current kit?

 

The dl380 g5s we have, have a coupe of pci-e 8x slots free which should take some workstation grade cards if required. No more hassle than a new NIC.

 

CPU accelleration is probably unlikely as GPU stuff scales horribly on CPU.

Edited February 16, 2011 by SYNACK

[gshaw]

Ye I'd imagine it wouldn't do too well as software-only. Question with the graphics cards is getting sufficiently powerful ones in half height cards, although I'm guessing once manufacturers see the demand they'll fill the gap in the market.

 

Have to admit I'm still trying to figure out what Microsoft are doing with VDI, on one hand they show ways of providing an MS-only VDI infrastructure but then on the other there doesn't seem to be full on management \ provisioning as you'd need for a large scale deployment. How far are they going to go with it I wonder?

 

Quick straw poll then, would RemoteFX tempt you to go down the Hyper-V route if you were choosing what virtualisation software to put on your hosts for a new project? Or could it be the case of keeping your servers on VMWare and putting new hosts in for VDI with Hyper-V?

Edited February 16, 2011 by gshaw

[paul121]

VMware all the way with servers and Citrix for the desktop - the licenses are cheap cheap now - we have it here.

 

MS isnt as mature yet - steer away if possible.

[Willott]

The dl380 g5s we have, have a coupe of pci-e 8x slots free which should take some workstation grade cards if required.

 

I've been having a look around for PCI-E 8x cards, I can only really find 16x (and from the looks of the slot/cards there's no chance we could stick the 16x card in the 8x slot). Anyone know of any decent workstation type cards in the 8x format? Otherwise this may be the downfall of this idea here.

[localzuk]

VMware all the way with servers and Citrix for the desktop - the licenses are cheap cheap now - we have it here.

 

MS isnt as mature yet - steer away if possible.

 

Citrix is by no means 'cheap cheap', nor is VMWare licensing! It is in fact 'bleeding expensive'... Microsoft stuff is included in the price of your server license for Hyper-V and RDP. So if it works, why pay more?

[DMcCoy]

People should also be aware that although you may have a PCI-E slot, and a card that will fit, the server will not necessarily support PCI-E graphics cards.

 

Especially HPs.

 

We have some G5 HP servers here which we wanted to use an application that required Direct3D, while the GPU fitted, the server did not detect it, or even boot (it was not on the supported device list). Despite trying various 2x 4x and 8x cards HP could come up with nothing for a compatible card.

 

Newer servers are likely to be better, but just because it can fit doesn't mean it will work.

[SYNACK]

Ye I'd imagine it wouldn't do too well as software-only. Question with the graphics cards is getting sufficiently powerful ones in half height cards, although I'm guessing once manufacturers see the demand they'll fill the gap in the market.

Quick straw poll then, would RemoteFX tempt you to go down the Hyper-V route if you were choosing what virtualisation software to put on your hosts for a new project? Or could it be the case of keeping your servers on VMWare and putting new hosts in for VDI with Hyper-V?

 

I've been having a look around for PCI-E 8x cards, I can only really find 16x (and from the looks of the slot/cards there's no chance we could stick the 16x card in the 8x slot). Anyone know of any decent workstation type cards in the 8x format? Otherwise this may be the downfall of this idea here.

 

The DL380s have full length full height slots on a riser card so that they sit horozontaly. The slots are electroniclly PCI-E 8x but the actual sockets are PCI-E 16x. The GPUs should be able to adapt and use only eight lanes which will slow them down but it should not matter to much.

 

As to Hyper-V I would and have gone that way anyway, VMware is not cheap and the only reason they are getting cheaper is because MS is posing a threat. As VMware themselves are taking MS seriously as a threat I don't think that a lot of people give them enough credit or thought due to their own prejudices.

[paul121]

VMware licensing is good for schools - i got it for £2k - Essentials Plus which you aren't going to outgrow.

 

Plus Microsoft virtualisation products aren't nowhere near as good.

[morganw]

So does an RDP 7.1 session compare favorably to a Citrix ICA session in terms of multimedia performance?

[paul121]

HyperV is not a production product.

Speak to John Reynolds at The Campion School - i know him and he took six months deploying HyperV across 5 hosts all to save the license cost of £1600.

So in the end he didnt save anything he lost money.

 

VMware Essentials Plus is all you need for a school and at a cost of £1600 why should you look to HyperV - plus VMware gives us all more experience in the outside world - nobody uses Microsoft outside of schools - its a feature less non production product + you have to install Server 2008 as its not a bare metal hypervisor. VMware/Citrix is - much higher performing.

[localzuk]

People use Hyper-V outside schools, stop making wild and inaccurate claims.

 

Hyper-V can be installed as part of a Windows 2008 Core installation, thereby removing a lot of the extra stuff that comes with 2008 normally.

 

Also, vmware doesn't include RemoteFX. Therefore, it is NOT capable of the same things we're talking about here.

[SYNACK]

HyperV is not a production product.

Speak to John Reynolds at The Campion School - i know him and he took six months deploying HyperV across 5 hosts all to save the license cost of £1600.

So in the end he didnt save anything he lost money.

 

VMware Essentials Plus is all you need for a school and at a cost of £1600 why should you look to HyperV - plus VMware gives us all more experience in the outside world - nobody uses Microsoft outside of schools - its a feature less non production product + you have to install Server 2008 as its not a bare metal hypervisor. VMware/Citrix is - much higher performing.

 

Thats a big axe you are grinding there, I know of many Hyper-V deployments that have gone well in schools and elsewhere. I'm sure that there may have been some specifig issues that made it difficult to use in the situation that you reference but no product is perfect for every implementation.

 

Hyper-V is a bare metal hypervisor as it sits below all the OSs installed on the system even the console one, the console just gets special privilages to output to the moniter and appear to access the hardware directly even though they go through the hypervisor.

 

What specific kind of issues did he actually experience in the deployment?

[somabc]

PCIe 8x cards are rare and expensive while PCIe 16x card often simply will not fit into the slots as they normally designed for Gigabit Network cards not GPU's.

[gshaw]

It's interesting seeing the responses with RemoteFX as it suggests that people want to use existing hardware to do the VDI deployment, is that just for testing or do you reckon you have enough spare capacity on your current virtual server farm to run some clients as well?

 

In reality if you want to do a larger number of clients you'll probably need additional hardware and disk capacity so in fact you could run a best-of-both-worlds scenario with VMWare on servers and Hyper-V with RemoteFX for the desktops on new server hardware designed for the graphics accelerator cards...

 

Don't want to fan the flames of VMWare vs Hyper-V on this thread but out of interest are the Hyper-V deployments out there using all the higher-level features i.e. CSVs, Live Migration etc or are they being done at a more simple level?

[localzuk]

RemoteFX also works with standard Remote Desktop Services, and not just VDI. So, reasonably, it shouldn't add much if any load to an existing deployment, when used in conjunction with RDS.