localzuk Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 SIMS has an NDA..whatever next! What does that cover...or is it a state secret?!?!?! SIMS doesn't. The Business Objects do...
geekulike Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Ok, thanks. What is the idea behind the NDA on Business Objects?
garrysaddington Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Ok, thanks. What is the idea behind the NDA on Business Objects? So that other companies can't get the information to interface without paying Capita as a partner?
CyberNerd Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 SIMS has an NDA..whatever next! What does that cover...or is it a state secret?!?!?! To access their api you need to sign an NDA - I always assumed so you couldn't then opensource anything that you developed (as that would essentially be the instruction to use the api) NDA is directly anticompetitive with OSS licenses. If too many others start interfacing with SIMS then capita loose marketshare on all there other plugins. Not sure how they manage to square that with OFT, I'm sure someone can explain... It looks like the way around this is going to be SIF - as soon as it's easy to get data in and out of SIMS using SIF, the api should become largely irrelevant, as SIF will essentially be the api.
geekulike Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 To access their api you need to sign an NDA - I always assumed so you couldn't then opensource anything that you developed (as that would essentially be the instruction to use the api) NDA is directly anticompetitive with OSS licenses. If too many others start interfacing with SIMS then capita loose marketshare on all there other plugins. Not sure how they manage to square that with OFT, I'm sure someone can explain... It looks like the way around this is going to be SIF - as soon as it's easy to get data in and out of SIMS using SIF, the api should become largely irrelevant, as SIF will essentially be the api. OK, but I don't want/need access to an 'API', just SQL access to my data in my database running on my server...is that too much to ask? It may be complex and undocumented, but at the end of the day it's just another SQL Server database. Yes, the schema might change, but that's a risk that's always in play when building a reporting/analysis application.
matt40k Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 OK, but I don't want/need access to an 'API', just SQL access to my data in my database running on my server...is that too much to ask? It may be complex and undocumented, but at the end of the day it's just another SQL Server database. Yes, the schema might change, but that's a risk that's always in play when building a reporting/analysis application. Sorry, what data are you pulling out and why?
vikpaw Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 ... As there are no trial, demo, or crippleware versions of SIMS available, how do we assess the complexity of the schema to decide if it will hinder custom report development, without actually buying the product? This is a key deciding factor for us. You have to trust us. It's really complex! Really really! I've used it a bit from a virtual machine and many others have little bits and pieces that they do via scripts,queries etc. but i don't know of anyone that isn't a business that is doing huge amounts with the data.
SimpleSi Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 As SIMS runs on SQL Server, which is licensed to the school separately, there seems to be little Capita can do to stop custom report development or data extracts against the SQL Server database that SIMS requires. Well, they could encypt the data in the database I've used an SQLLite based product that does that - I can access the database but can't actually do anything useful with the data. Now I'd hope Capita wouldn't go down that route but I think thats something that would be purely up to them as a business Remember - you pay for a product - not for the internal workings/parts that the product uses and no-one has to make the part work for you if you decide to take the product apart regards Simon
geekulike Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 You have to trust us. It's really complex! Really really! I've used it a bit from a virtual machine and many others have little bits and pieces that they do via scripts,queries etc. but i don't know of anyone that isn't a business that is doing huge amounts with the data. The key issue is would we be locking our data into a repository that dictates how/if we can retrieve that data, for whatever purposes take our fancy, such as custom reporting/analysis? Guided reporting interfaces lack flexibility and demand time and effort to learn skills that are not transferable (the 'Business Objects' interface in this case). The unload 'API' is not an API at all, it's a client application to export data. What should be available with any data capture application is a documented schema and the ability to query it to your hearts content. Go and ask any big company if they would accept restrictions on querying/unloading data from their big ERP systems...all of which are no doubt orders of magnitude more complex than SIMS!
penfold_99 Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 The key issue is would we be locking our data into a repository that dictates how/if we can retrieve that data, for whatever purposes take our fancy, such as custom reporting/analysis? Guided reporting interfaces lack flexibility and demand time and effort to learn skills that are not transferable (the 'Business Objects' interface in this case). The unload 'API' is not an API at all, it's a client application to export data. What should be available with any data capture application is a documented schema and the ability to query it to your hearts content. Go and ask any big company if they would accept restrictions on querying/unloading data from their big ERP systems...all of which are no doubt orders of magnitude more complex than SIMS! @geekulike What data do you want to pull out of SIMS.net? Are you wanting to develop custom application that use data stored in SIMS? We have done a lot of work in supporting SIF and using it to pull information from SIMS and CMIS. If you let me know what data you want to query i can tell you if SIF supports it. If it does we might be able to create a SIF agent that supports your need.
geekulike Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 @geekulike What data do you want to pull out of SIMS.net? Are you wanting to develop custom application that use data stored in SIMS? We have done a lot of work in supporting SIF and using it to pull information from SIMS and CMIS. If you let me know what data you want to query i can tell you if SIF supports it. If it does we might be able to create a SIF agent that supports your need. There is nothing specific at the moment. It's more about ensuring we don't make a decsion we regret and find we can't access the data as we desire after we've spend a lot of money on an app we can't trial. Where can we find out what's available in SIF?
SimpleSi Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 @geekulike I'm sure a quick phone call to neighboring schools would find you someone willing to demo SIMS to you regards Simon
geekulike Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 @geekulike I'm sure a quick phone call to neighboring schools would find you someone willing to demo SIMS to you regards Simon Good idea. Would that shed light on SIF?
SkywOrca Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 Info on SIF, including the current specifications, can be found on the SIFA website: Welcome to the Systems Interoperability Framework (SIF) Association UK
geekulike Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 Very interesting...questions: 1. How much awareness is there is the UK of SIF? 2. How is an analytic app (using data from SIMS or an equivalent) developed/deployed using SIF? 3. Do UK schools demand SIF-certified products? Thx!
SkywOrca Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 SIF in the UK is still at the pilot stage, so there isn't much out there yet (it's due to go into pilot in Birmingham in the near future). Once the pilot has proved successful there would no doubt be some discussions to take the project forward on a national scale, at which time schools should start to become more aware of the project and the implications/benefits. No doubt in the future SIF certification of software will become a much more important factor to schools and LEAs. Development of analysis tools for SIF would be a matter of writing an agent for the software that allows it to process the messages that the SIF model use for data transfer and allow it to talk to the ZIS (the main SIF "server" that sits in the middle of all the agents and orchestrates the show). The amount of data available for analysis software to process would be limited by the data that falls under the SIF data specifications, but the likelihood is that this will increase as the SIF data model matures. You only need to look at the situation in the USA (which is where the SIF model was first developed) to see how a mature system can work, but you need to remember that the USA don't tend to have a concept of a monolithic MIS system that sits in the middle of their data, and rely more on a system of smaller apps that are focused on specific functions.
geekulike Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 Thx...so would each school need to run a ZIS server to adopt SIF?
SkywOrca Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 It would largely depend on the topology adopted by your LEA. In the vast majority of cases, they would have a single ZIS that sits in the middle and uses zones to packet each school off from each other. Your local agents would then connect to the central ZIS. Of course, all the data is transferred over ssl connections, so there shouldn't be any security issues associated with SIF, and all the data for each school would be isolated from other schools too, so there's no chance that others in your LEA could be snooping on your SIF messages. You could set up a local ZIS in your school if you really wanted, I suppose, but you would have to factor in the costs of hosting your own ZIS vs the benefits it might bring, if you'd be mainly using it just to extract data internally for analysis then my guess is it wouldn't be cost effective.
geekulike Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 LEA hosting the ZIS is obviously best. SSL to move data around is a no-brainer...would anyone seriously move data between schools/LEAs etc any other way??? Thx.
BromcomPublicRelations Posted February 5, 2010 Posted February 5, 2010 SIF in the UK is still at the pilot stage, so there isn't much out there yet (it's due to go into pilot in Birmingham in the near future). Once the pilot has proved successful there would no doubt be some discussions to take the project forward on a national scale, at which time schools should start to become more aware of the project and the implications/benefits. No doubt in the future SIF certification of software will become a much more important factor to schools and LEAs. Development of analysis tools for SIF would be a matter of writing an agent for the software that allows it to process the messages that the SIF model use for data transfer and allow it to talk to the ZIS (the main SIF "server" that sits in the middle of all the agents and orchestrates the show). The amount of data available for analysis software to process would be limited by the data that falls under the SIF data specifications, but the likelihood is that this will increase as the SIF data model matures. You only need to look at the situation in the USA (which is where the SIF model was first developed) to see how a mature system can work, but you need to remember that the USA don't tend to have a concept of a monolithic MIS system that sits in the middle of their data, and rely more on a system of smaller apps that are focused on specific functions. Just to supplement the above information, SIF is presently part of the interoperability review carried out by Capgemini within the bigger picture of LA & cross central Goverment department needs for data interchange agenda. As to time frame - th emost recent communication from DCSF recent says: " ... the review report is in final draft and is being considered by the Department and Becta, as the UK lead educational technology agency. Once we and they are satisfied with the analysis and recommendations, the report will be referred to the BIS/DCSF Information and Technology Strategy Board to consider. It will be a while yet before we can publish anything although we do understand the need to inform suppliers quickly of any policy decisions." We asked DCSF and it appears that this information can be shared publicly. So we are happy to do so with EduGeek forum -please see the attached. Bromcom has been one of the most vocal party for 'interoparability' and 'open systems' since way back in 1990s and it will continue to be so! .DCSF System-wide interoperability review - Capgemini commission.pdf
BromcomPublicRelations Posted February 5, 2010 Posted February 5, 2010 (edited) So Bromcom has built-in SIF support? Edited February 8, 2010 by Dos_Box
penfold_99 Posted February 5, 2010 Posted February 5, 2010 (edited) Will bromcom be at the next SIFA conference? Do you currently have your MIS attached to a ZIS for people to test their SIF agents? As i would like to test our Moodle SIF Agent to make sure it can work with data pulled from your MIS. Edited February 8, 2010 by Dos_Box
penfold_99 Posted February 5, 2010 Posted February 5, 2010 Thx...so would each school need to run a ZIS server to adopt SIF? It depends of the agreed topology of SIF within the UK. As currently there is no way for ZIS's to talk to each other, so the ZIS has to sit at the top of the tree. This is only helpful if your RBC or LEA are implmenting SIF, if they are not then a ZIS in your schools is the only options. There is a possibility of having one ZIS per RBC, with 100's for schools connected with 10's of agents connecting getting overloaded if large messages are being set. We are currently using SIF to move data from school MIS's to MOODLE, but currently very few LA's are Implementing SIF as implementing Identity Management first, then allowing other applications access. So we are implementing a ZIS within schools.
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