Programatic data extraction from SIMS.net Data Base

[MattMitchell]

It depends of the agreed topology of SIF within the UK. As currently there is no way for ZIS's to talk to each other, so the ZIS has to sit at the top of the tree. This is only helpful if your RBC or LEA are implmenting SIF, if they are not then a ZIS in your schools is the only options.

 

There is a possibility of having one ZIS per RBC, with 100's for schools connected with 10's of agents connecting getting overloaded if large messages are being set.

 

We are currently using SIF to move data from school MIS's to MOODLE, but currently very few LA's are Implementing SIF as implementing Identity Management first, then allowing other applications access. So we are implementing a ZIS within schools.

 

Apart from questions of LA policy, etc, does a SIF agent have to be certified by the SIFA in order to work with an existing ZIS? The SIF spec looks interesting, and seems to cover a lot of things I'd like to be able to do; but SIFA membership plus the fees for testing an agent look rather expensive...

[penfold_99]

Apart from questions of LA policy, etc, does a SIF agent have to be certified by the SIFA in order to work with an existing ZIS? The SIF spec looks interesting, and seems to cover a lot of things I'd like to be able to do; but SIFA membership plus the fees for testing an agent look rather expensive...

 

Hi Matt,

 

In short the answer is no. A uncertified agent can talk to either a certified or uncertified ZIS.

The main question is do you want to use a uncertified agent or ZIS?

 

All agents will be uncertified agains the lastest version of the spec as the certification is only on 1.1 soon to be 1.3.

 

We are writing our agent to 1.2 an it can test against 1.3 as the objects we use are the same.

[BromcomPublicRelations]

Will bromcom be at the next SIFA conference? Do you currently have your MIS attached to a ZIS for people to test their SIF agents? As i would like to test our Moodle SIF Agent to make sure it can work with data pulled from your MIS.

 

Just for the record

Bromcom became the very first UK company to be a member of SIF in US in the year 2000. Bromcom demonstarted to DCSF (then DfES) and other MIS suppliers the concept of SIF in obe of the meetings in the year 2000 where CBDS data items were being agreed. For the obvious reason it was not supported then.

 

Bromcom since 1990s fought very hard for 'interoperability'. Early 2000s made case to DCSF within e-GIF policy and sought support for a length of time from DCSF. We were not supported and our efforts were frustrated. In teh end we had to resort to OFT (Office of Fair Trading) in the year 2002/2003 where we secured Voluntary Assurance from Capita in 2003 - please see other thread on this. Such work is very costly and time consuming. It demands substantial technical and management resources. However it has been essential to secure a practical 'interoperability' that exists today for majority of our customers.

 

Since early 2000s & SIF

Sadly with OFT taking priority, for Bromcom SIF has been on back burners seeing DCSF's inability/unwillingness to get it mandated. However we are encouraged with the recent draft proposal that DCSF may fund the developments under IMPS MuO. Bromcom reviewing the developments and plans to fast track with SIF specially if DCSF proposal to fund a 'joint developement' and mandates it.

 

We have a scheduled meeting of "working group" with all MIS suppliers MoU Mk2 (SIF funding is also covered) which will take place in Becta with other MIS suppliers later this month. We are happy to keep the forum updated if asked.

 

.

[MattMitchell]

Hi Matt,

 

In short the answer is no. A uncertified agent can talk to either a certified or uncertified ZIS.

The main question is do you want to use a uncertified agent or ZIS?

 

All agents will be uncertified agains the lastest version of the spec as the certification is only on 1.1 soon to be 1.3.

 

We are writing our agent to 1.2 an it can test against 1.3 as the objects we use are the same.

 

An uncertified agent or ZIS is not appealing, no! Essentially I was looking at SIF as a means of getting data in and out of SIMS effectively, but the SIFA website gives the impression that getting an agent certified involves joining the SIFA (costly) and paying to have the agent certified (costly) - have I got this all wrong?

 

Otherwise, it might be cheaper just to pay for the SIMS SQL partnership programme instead...

[PhilNeal]

It will be interesting to see which of our partners select SIF for real-time access to SIMS; browser access to SIMS via SIF agents wouldn't exactly be responsive!

 

I'm not hopeful that in the current climate DCSF will be able to fund SIF - take a look at the estimated costs at:

 

https://www.sifassociation.org/uk/upload/news/86EFD8_SIF%20Cost%20Benefits%20Analysis%20Summary.pdf

 

Just for the record Capita has served on the SIFA Board since it started; played a very significant role in devising the UK data model and has encouraged SIFA to address the security issues that would have been problematical in the UK. I'm pleased to say that most of our issues other than cost have been addressed.

[penfold_99]

An uncertified agent or ZIS is not appealing, no! Essentially I was looking at SIF as a means of getting data in and out of SIMS effectively, but the SIFA website gives the impression that getting an agent certified involves joining the SIFA (costly) and paying to have the agent certified (costly) - have I got this all wrong?

 

Otherwise, it might be cheaper just to pay for the SIMS SQL partnership programme instead...

 

Hi Matt,

 

I will be in a position soon to sell you MIS SIF Agent and a ZIS the can work with SIMS and CMIS. We are just waiting for some additonal ojects to be supported before doing so.

 

This will be a low cost alternative to the SIMS SQL partnership programme.

[matt40k]

Just out of interest, could you post an idea of cost and what could be achieved?

[penfold_99]

It will be interesting to see which of our partners select SIF for real-time access to SIMS; browser access to SIMS via SIF agents wouldn't exactly be responsive!

 

SIF is not designed to used for real time access to MIS data, its design to distribute data to systems that require it.

 

for example a new students enroled, only their new data would be published and then any system connected could then act on it. All the other systems wouldnt need to query sims to get any new students.

 

I'm not hopeful that in the current climate DCSF will be able to fund SIF - take a look at the estimated costs at:

 

https://www.sifassociation.org/uk/upload/news/86EFD8_SIF%20Cost%20Benefits%20Analysis%20Summary.pdf

 

I have had a look at the costs and they seem very high per schools. Is would be interesting to know how they came to this figure as they contradict themselves in regards to costs to primary schools.

 

The inital cost of £1600 for a MIS SIF Agent in primarys is very high, given i can get one for a few hundred. If there was a cost to access a ZIS then this would be paid to the Secondary for hosting it so would reduce there cost to the secondary as it would generate income.

 

The £4700 on going annual cost is very high for secondary, given that they will be generating income from the primary to support the ZIS.

 

If costs to schools could be reduced by 20% or increase benefits value by 26.6% £33 million will be saved.

 

Just for the record Capita has served on the SIFA Board since it started; played a very significant role in devising the UK data model and has encouraged SIFA to address the security issues that would have been problematical in the UK. I'm pleased to say that most of our issues other than cost have been addressed.

 

I have attended the last 2 SIF conferences, at the last conference Capita were proactive in helping us find a solution to a issue we found with the specification regarding timetable

[garrysaddington]

SIF is not designed to used for real time access to MIS data, its design to distribute data to systems that require it.

 

 

We already have a common basic data set and a common transfer file (XML ) and web standards like XML-RPC and AJAX, can someone explain to me why any system that needs access to data in a MIS could not just request an automated ctf output from the MIS to extract the data that has changed since the last output - ie. new students? It could then automatically import said data.

If the need is to write back, then the opposite could happen.

Or am I being stupid?

 

 

What about this:attached

Edited February 16, 2010 by garrysaddington