NetDiag Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 Not surprised really! I think M$ have shafted themselves up their own rectum this time with Vista. It's just way too ambitious for it's own good and let's face it it has many major disadvantages over it's minimal eye candy features which are not original because apple OS and Linux OS's had them a long time ago. Take a look at youtube videos of Ubuntu running Beryl! Seems way more impressive than Vista's 3D capabilities and skinable too whereas Aero isnt! They never come up with anything new, original or groundbreaking. To them it's all about breaking the competition and stealing ideas. Vista could prove to be a costly mistake for M$.
OverWorked Posted January 11, 2007 Author Posted January 11, 2007 I didn't think it was that bad. I'll probably use it at home in the next year. It's just that Vista is way beyond our hardware and doesn't provide any features useful for a school as far as I can see - certainly not worth the upgrade cost.
Disease Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 I am sure Microsoft will lose sleep over it........not.
Geoff Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 I think this is a symptom of a larger problem. I think Vista as a software project is too complex and large for the closed source development model to cope with. Fair enough, Microsoft streamlined the feature set and managed to get it out the door. But this doesn't bode well for the future. For example, when is the successor to Vista going to appear? 2015?
Disease Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 I am sure Microsoft have the money and the Expertise to handle any closed source project, no matter how big.
webman Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 Oh dear, MS were a bit slow on the "generousity" front with this one They've obviously struggled with Vista - dropped features and endless delays - I agree with Geoff.
Geoff Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 I am sure Microsoft have the money and the Expertise to handle any closed source project, no matter how big. I agree with that sentiment. But that wasn't my point. My point is that it would take so long for Vista+1 to get out the door that it's irrelevant. As OS's using other methods (Opensource, web 2.0, etc) have moved on. Secondly, Microsoft (as with any other public company) is at the mercy of it's shareholders. Pressure from them to continue to see bigger dividends year on year may force them to seek alternate stratergies. For example, we've already seen this with Apple, diversifying into the personal music player space with iPod, basing it's OS on Open source BSD with Mac OS 10 and dumping it's proprietary hardware platform for standard off the shelf PC components.
unixman Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 http://uk.news.yahoo.com/11012007/221/microsoft-wins-extension-uk-schools-contract.html I wonder if this extension has been granted so that BECTA can say in a years time "Schools, Vista it is now OK to use". Gartner have said that users should stay away from Vista until 2008 at the earliest, so Becta can wait until next year.
Lee_K_81 Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 From my understanding Becta havent said NEVER use it, just to hold off for 12 months. This is usual with any major release. Lets face it, M$ dont do anything minor with either good things or bad! The article also states that Becta have renewed it's memorandum of understanding with M$, and Becta have been widely critisised for not supporting, or encouraging schools with deployment of open source software. Once the early adopters have discovered all the bugs, Becta will say everyone should upgrade. The when SP1 gets released they'll say hold off for a while then deploy... ad infinitum..... Becta wont say hold off completely. They benefit from agreements with M$ as do schools with favorable pricing compared with private sector. Becta don't back open source..... whats x% of £0 anyone? Hands up if you know. As sad as it seems, the majority of schools have to teach M$ products to kids because thats what they will use in the world of work, thats what they use at home and are familiar with. Until society as a whole changes it's stance on open source software M$ will continue to dominate. Even Universities are having a major shift from *nix to M$, when i went (all of 3 years ago) it was 50:50, my little brother is at the same uni now and it's now about 80:20.
bossman Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 I have no doubt that the Microsoft marketing people will come up with some sort of revamp like offering it free to all with a valid xp license and then charging a minimal amount to upgrade to the next version of Vista. What do ya think Bill?
CyberNerd Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 I don't recall Becta ever saying anything like this about MS products, Whilst I absolutely agree with Becta that there are no "must-have features" in Vista and that of course there will inherently be problems migrating to any new operating system I think the real reason behind this is actually BSF. It hardly makes sense for schools to start spending money on vista/office 2007 now when BSF will have PfI companies deploying them anyway. From Bectas point of view its just spending money twice.
PiqueABoo Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 I think all they've really said in addition to the painfully obvious "wait a bit until it settles down" that they probably paid Oakleigh a few bob for and no one should need a Becta (as opposed to any IT editorial) to tell them, is that their final report on Vista won't be finished until this time next year, so please don't make it redundant by rushing out and installing it beforehand. And in a year's time you'll likely get "Microsoft... Application Vendor... stability improvements during 2007...." zzzzz... zzzzz... zzzzz
kingswood Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 Schools may be told to shun Vista outwith any educational application that needs its specific technologies (I would say video editing or music etc), but business have lapped it up at 62.5% higher rates within one month of launch compared to Windows 2000! The problem from one side is that Vista may not be compatible with some of your older educational software; but from the other end future software needs will no doubt require Vista in some way to get all the functionality from the applications. So whilst BECTA are just making a subjective assessment I'm not sure why. When MS release an OS it's take-up is inevitable. Rather like KS3 online tests or BSF ;-) Of course we could argue with BECTA that Vista contains some new improved security features that would actually benefit school networks- advances in group policy etc. And that's without mentioning deployment tools and options, and slick integration with Longhorn Server. In the end you have to make a whole school decision based on your current and projected needs. BECTA are right in that schools shouldn't just dive in- ever- to this sort of release. But it will come...
PiqueABoo Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 62.5% higher rates.. compared to Windows 2000! Did you get that from an MS marketing statement? Consider: "Business" bought 1000 copies of X in the first month "Business" bought 27,123,456 copies of X in the second year "Business" bought 1625 copies of Y in the first month. An increase in a rate doesn't tell us anything much. future software needs will no doubt require Vista Maybe, but I've yet to find an app I want to run (lots and lots of those) that doesn't work on my W2K laptop.
OverWorked Posted January 12, 2007 Author Posted January 12, 2007 There's more here:- Becta: Why schools should avoid Vista and here. I haven't read Becta's report yet, but I agree with what's said in the ZDNet article about cost. It's simply out of our league. I don't think it will be necessary for a long time as it'll aslo be a long time before any educational software that neds it is produced.
kingswood Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 62.5% higher rates.. compared to Windows 2000! Did you get that from an MS marketing statement? Consider: "Business" bought 1000 copies of X in the first month "Business" bought 27,123,456 copies of X in the second year "Business" bought 1625 copies of Y in the first month. An increase in a rate doesn't tell us anything much. future software needs will no doubt require Vista Maybe, but I've yet to find an app I want to run (lots and lots of those) that doesn't work on my W2K laptop. Nope. NPD report. Sales are actually down over 3% against the XP launch, so it's not all good news. And remember that is without general release to the public. Take what you want from the figures or the NPD report, but it either says Vista is doing well or it's fudged to make it look like it's doing well. I don't care. I'm a Mac user
Geoff Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 Indeed. Educational software isn't even a driver for upgrading to XP. It's the platfom stability compared to Win9x, multimedia support (digital cameras, CD burning etc) and similar things. I can see Vista sneaking in the usual way though, because it comes preinstalled on new PCs. I do forsee that through this we'll be forced to upgrade at some point. Because we'll be unable to get the drivers for newer hardware so that it'll operate when we downgrade new machines to XP Pro.
CyberNerd Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 I think Becta's comments on MSOffice are much more telling. It seems to be very pro ODF (as previously noted in their technical specifications). Maybe Becta are looking towards the day when schools do not require Vista at all. Recommendation Educational ICT suppliers should seek to facilitate choice to schools, ensuring that computers for this market are shipped with a choice of Office productivity suites on the desktop. Ideally this choice should include an open-source offering. " Recommendation Microsoft should move to provide native support for the ODF file format as soon as is practical and at the latest by mid 2007. Recommendation Schools and colleges should only deploy Office 2007 when its interoperability with alternative products is satisfactory. Using the default file format of Microsoft Office 2007 therefore has the potential to exacerbate ‘digital divide’ issues as a result of the loss of interoperability with free-to-use products. Becta considers that educational institutions should only consider deploying Office 2007 when they are assured of its interoperability with alternative products including free-to-use products such as OpenOffice.org. The 64bit vista comments were also insightful in light of Eric Raymonds latest paper What I don't understand is that they say all this, then happily contract out services that will guarantee lock-in ?
PiqueABoo Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 it either says Vista is doing well or it's fudged to make it look like it's doing well. At this early stage I wouldn't be suprised if they're doing much more than counting downloads... and given bandwidth increases it's easier for folk to download a big OS now compared to 2000, despite the Vista bloat. I don't care. I'm a Mac user I don't care either. Except for logon/off my Windows [whatever] spends most of it's time behind applications where it belongs.
adent Posted January 18, 2007 Posted January 18, 2007 Well - sorry to disagree but I'm impressed with Vista - my 3 year old lappy is like a spring chicken after installing. True it has a performance index of 1 - but that's because the graphics chip is naff - do I miss Aero? not really - but after reinstalling XP for the third time in six months and STILL ending up with a 10 minute power on to desktop after a couple of weeks use - I have to say - I like Vista much better. The main problem with Vista is the same as when Windows 95 or Windows 2000 or even XP came out. Other software is not necessarily compatible. Having said that - most of what I need I have found a workaround for. There is the option of running the application in compatibility mode - but that is no guarantee. IMHO Vista is here to stay - yes it will not gain wide acceptance for at least 18 months, but that's a good thing - more time to get under the hood before the end users break it.
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