Sims forced upgrade?

[andyturpie]

Hi Guys,

 

We have just had some paperwork through from Herts County Council regarding the cessation of support and SIMS on the 2005 platform in Summer 2010 which is forcing us to migrate to 2008, along with a nice bill of £1550 for our troubles.

 

The school I work for is pretty sure the last migration was either free or subsidised and are querying this with other schools if you have had to do this?

 

Regards,

 

Andy Turpie

[Chunky]

I know SIMS is going to require SQL 2008 from October - maybe this is an advance charge to convert your SQL from 2005 to 2008? (I know the SQL 2008 plus unlimited CAL licence is around £1250)

 

Chunks

[Michael]

Do you mean upgrading from SQL 2005 to SQL 2008?

[Mcshammer_dj]

Hi Guys,

 

We have just had some paperwork through from Herts County Council regarding the cessation of support and SIMS on the 2005 platform in Summer 2010 which is forcing us to migrate to 2008, along with a nice bill of £1550 for our troubles.

 

The school I work for is pretty sure the last migration was either free or subsidised and are querying this with other schools if you have had to do this?

 

Regards,

 

Andy Turpie

 

It is free if you use the express package that CApita are delivering. If you are using full SQL then you will need to upgrade and there is a cost associated with this.

[Michael]

To be honest though unless you're a very small Primary school I would advise against SQL Express as it's limited to 1GB of memory. Sims and FMS will quickly use this much and the rest.

 

I think LAs need to review the cost of upgrades of MIS systems as they are getting a little out of control. I find it really interesting that a lot of LAs are adopting Moodle which of course uses MySQL and there are some very big websites out there which use MySQL too, so is MS SQL really that necessary anymore?

[vikpaw]

I would go for the full SQL 2008 if you can afford it. Usage of SIMS will only ever go up and you will at some point want parents accessing data out as well...

 

Full SQL will cost you, but you may have a schools agreement with Microsoft, or the LA might that covers you, SSAT also have one, so you should get a discounted price. Not sure if your quote is for upgrading software , migrating data or both.

 

See attached for reference with regards to Capita's offer to migrate our data.

 

Bear in mind, i believe you can do the migration / upgrade yourself, with the whole of the EG community here to support you if things go wrong. Nice if you can try it out on a test server, before going live...

SQL2008 offer prices Jan10.docx

[garrysaddington]

To be honest though unless you're a very small Primary school I would advise against SQL Express as it's limited to 1GB of memory. Sims and FMS will quickly use this much and the rest.

 

I think LAs need to review the cost of upgrades of MIS systems as they are getting a little out of control. I find it really interesting that a lot of LAs are adopting Moodle which of course uses MySQL and there are some very big websites out there which use MySQL too, so is MS SQL really that necessary anymore?

 

Not sure what all the fuss about upgrading is about, and I understand about MySQL and the advantages it gives. My company uses Postgresql and upgrades are just a matter of dump the old data and import into new shiny database server, job done, no cost!

However, with most modern MIS (all?) so closely tied to MS you never know what the incentives there are to stick with them or indeed the costs of moving away.

[Michael]

Not sure what all the fuss about upgrading is about

 

Primarily it's cost which is the problem. £1500+ every other year is quite expensive and in practice the school sees no advantage. It's all behind the scenes. I suspect eventually LAs probably will stick with Microsoft SQL, but it'll be centrally managed and hosted which should reduce prices when it comes to upgrades.

[CyberNerd]

They forced a 2000>2005 and 2000>xp upgrade a while back as well.

I just wish Capita would adopt a sensible development platform, they are costing schools Millions of pounds in forcing unnecessary MS 'upgrades'. Suppose they adopted a Java (or other, for example) environment - the system would be largely indifferent to the operating system, win7, 2000, 64bit no problem. But hey, better for Crapita to pass the costs onto their customers, and we just lap it up.

[Ric_]

@andieturpie: I suspect that the cost you have quoted is to perform the installation of SQL2008 and migrate SIMS to the new database. I believe the Westfield cost for Lancashire schools is similar. The additional SQL licensing costs will be on top of that.

 

I performed the 2000->2005 SQL upgrade myself and it was relatively painless (once you got past the randomness of some of the Capita tools).

[Oops_my_bad]

They forced a 2000>2005 and 2000>xp upgrade a while back as well.

I just wish Capita would adopt a sensible development platform, they are costing schools Millions of pounds in forcing unnecessary MS 'upgrades'. Suppose they adopted a Java (or other, for example) environment - the system would be largely indifferent to the operating system, win7, 2000, 64bit no problem. But hey, better for Crapita to pass the costs onto their customers, and we just lap it up.

 

Why are they costing millions of pounds in upgrades? 99% of schools should be able to get away with using SQL express. As for the actual upgrade - it's a piece of p*ss and anyone who needs to pay any extra to have this work done should, quite frankly, not be in charge of their servers etc...

 

MSSQL is a database platform that is backed and well supported by MS - it would be madness to use any other free platform for something as critical as school MIS's

Edited February 1, 2010 by Oops_my_bad

[CyberNerd]

Why are they costing millions of pounds in upgrades? 99% of schools should be able to get away with using SQL express. As for the actual upgrade - it's a piece of p*ss and anyone who needs to pay any extra to have this work done should, quite frankly, not be in charge of their servers etc...

 

It's not just the MSSQL upgrades, the OS dependency also costs schools. It should be run though an (os independant) browser - and it could have been, had Capita not chosen to pass it's dev costs onto it's customers....

 

MSSQL is a database platform that is backed and well supported by MS - it would be madness to use any other free platform for something as critical as school MIS's

 

MYSQL is a database platform that is backed and well supported by SUN/Oracle - it would be madness to run a VLE .....

[Soulfish]

MSSQL is a database platform that is backed and well supported by MS - it would be madness to use any other free platform for something as critical as school MIS's

Just because it's free doesn't mean it's not enterprise ready. I'm pretty sure that facebook has a bigger database then any school MIS, and they're able to use MySQL quite happily. The same goes for youtube and any number of e-commerce sites that are basing their entire business around a MySQL database.

 

There are a huge number of websites and companies out there that are using both MySQL and PostgreSQL. If you want a support contract you can also purchase those, and like Cybernerd pointed out MySQL is now backed by one of the largest database manufacturers in the world.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Soulfish
Spelling!

[garrysaddington]

Why are they costing millions of pounds in upgrades? 99% of schools should be able to get away with using SQL express. As for the actual upgrade - it's a piece of p*ss and anyone who needs to pay any extra to have this work done should, quite frankly, not be in charge of their servers etc...

 

MSSQL is a database platform that is backed and well supported by MS - it would be madness to use any other free platform for something as critical as school MIS's

 

OH dear! only MS can make good software then? Are you aware that the majority of "mission critical" web applications use free software? It seems that only UK schools and their suppliers live in legacy land;)

[creese]

Looks like it's time to get the iProds out and take a poke at Capita

[Quackers]

I would be happy if Capita were to move to MySQL.

 

It does not seem that long ago that we paid ££££ to move from MSSQL 2000 -> MSSQL 2005.

 

Now we have to pay ££££ again to move from MSSQL 2005 -> MSSQL 2008

 

Can somebody tell me what benifits this will bring to us? They would be better off putting the effort into MySQL and supporting OpenOffice too. Maybe then we would not have to upgrade SQL Server every 2-3 years and if we did cost would low.

[Michael]

I'm not sure how realistic this would be for SIMS as it's based on .NET. To my knowledge I've not come across an application based on .NET and uses MySQL. I'm not sure whether it's even possible. I suspect it isn't, so SIMS would have to be re-written. The amount of work involved would be huge, so I can't see it happening anytime soon.

[CyberNerd]

I'm not sure how realistic this would be for SIMS as it's based on .NET. To my knowledge I've not come across an application based on .NET and uses MySQL. I'm not sure whether it's even possible. I suspect it isn't, so SIMS would have to be re-written. The amount of work involved would be huge, so I can't see it happening anytime soon.

 

That was my point, they chose a development environment that was designed to pass costs onto the schools.

[TronXP]

I am in no way a fan of capita, but it seems that capita can't win. When they don't keep up to date, everyone complains and if they try to keep upto date then yet again complaints. Software assurance is a good thing to have!

[Ric_]

Can somebody tell me what benifits this will bring to us? They would be better off putting the effort into MySQL and supporting OpenOffice too. Maybe then we would not have to upgrade SQL Server every 2-3 years and if we did cost would low.

 

AFAIK it's for the advanced reporting that 2008 brings with it.

[matt40k]

I would be happy if Capita were to move to MySQL.

 

It does not seem that long ago that we paid ££££ to move from MSSQL 2000 -> MSSQL 2005.

 

Now we have to pay ££££ again to move from MSSQL 2005 -> MSSQL 2008

 

Can somebody tell me what benifits this will bring to us? They would be better off putting the effort into MySQL and supporting OpenOffice too. Maybe then we would not have to upgrade SQL Server every 2-3 years and if we did cost would low.

 

Your comparing a free version to a commerical version. You should compare MySQL Enterprise to MSSQL. Even if we don't use Microsoft for support, Capita does. Same goes for OpenOffice.

 

If you want to go down the open source route, you're going to start looking at redoing it all in Java, but then you won't have support...

[garrysaddington]

If you want to go down the open source route, you're going to start looking at redoing it all in Java, but then you won't have support...

 

This seems to be an entrenched view in the MS world - if you use open source then you won't get any support -more FUD. This is plainly completely wrong, and needs putting straight and is probably an insult on all the companies out there selling support for OS software. If you want free support get on mailing lists or IRC and speak with the developers directly, no helpdesks there. If you can pay then I'm sure Sun would sell you support for it's Java platform, Red Hat for its enterprise OS .......

[Oops_my_bad]

At the end of the day, Capita *have* to select one set of infrastructure to base their product. I am by no means an M$ fanboy but it makes sense - Capita have the support and backing of Microsoft with a reasonable turnaround time for problems, and the same with us humble users - if we have problems there are so many resources out there for MSSQL, all for free.

 

If it was down to a lot of "technicians" we would all still be running SIMS on NT4 and SQLv6. And then Capita would be getting blamed for being irresponsible and allowing schools to run insecure and unsupported platforms They can't win.

 

Re the comment about the OS upgrades - it's not just MSSQL that's the villain here - the latest version of MySQL only runs on Windows 2000 and Windows NT upwards - no support for Windows95 or earlier then?

[matt40k]

RE: Opensource comment

I can image what SLT would be saying when your MIS is down because of bug in your SQL and you're waiting for a response to your email. Commerical solutions allow for full-time developers so you don't have to wait for a developer to finish there "9-5" job. It's pointless say Capita should use MySQL because of the cost. If MySQL was truely cheaper, Capita would be moved over. They are a business after all and there primary job is to make money.

 

Also they are forced really to use Microsoft as it's what is primary used in the education sector. Becta are stating to push open source and non-MS stuff, but I would image Capita would go down the SaaS route.

[CyberNerd]

. It's pointless say Capita should use MySQL because of the cost. If MySQL was truely cheaper, Capita would be moved over. They are a business after all and there primary job is to make money.

 

That was the point, Capita could develop on a single postgres/mysql database and bundle that to schools with a web frontend, but it's cheaper for them to pass the costs of the .NET on to the schools - it saves Capita a few quid on development, but collectively it costs schools/LA a fortune in ensuring they have the correct .net/OS/database.