laputa01 Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 Can anyone recommend me an affordable one? Has to take HD Dv tapes. Budget around £500-800. Is that even a realistic price??
Firefly_Transport Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 Can anyone recommend me an affordable one? Has to take HD Dv tapes. Budget around £500-800. Is that even a realistic price?? Does it have to take tapes? You can get a Toshiba Camlio for about £100 and then fit it with 4GB SD card. Much faster to run data off to PC that way. and cheap enough to get several in for class work.
mb2k01 Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 I'd comment as above really. If your budget is that good then I'd scrub the idea of tapes and go for something like this sony hdd hd camcorder - Google Product Search We have several here and they are perfect - high quality + drag and drop video files.
laputa01 Posted January 20, 2010 Author Posted January 20, 2010 Thanks guys, The only reason i also need the tape feature is because I need to upload videos for students. As the camera that the students is always booked out, it would be handy to use it as a player.
laserblazer Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 Thanks guys, The only reason i also need the tape feature is because I need to upload videos for students. As the camera that the students is always booked out, it would be handy to use it as a player. Sorry but I don't quite understand that. If the camera is always booked out, then how can you use it as a player? If you have a card based camera and have more than one card, you can keep the camera booked out all of the time providing you have a SDHC card reader. Unless I'm mistaken, HDV tape is limited to 1440x1080, whereas you can got 1920x1080 with many card based cameras. I've just got a Canon HF S100 and the picture quality is stunning.
Ashm Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 I've been looking into new Camcorders for our Media Department and from what I understand HDV would be the best choice if you're going to be doing a lot of editing with the footage. 1
laserblazer Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 Because HDV is tape based then you will need a tape player, usually the camera, to capture the video in real time. Tape based systems have a lot of moving parts, which makes them more susceptible to damage. AVCHD is the way to go IMHO. 1
SteveBentley Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 Sorry but I don't quite understand that. If the camera is always booked out, then how can you use it as a player? If you have a card based camera and have more than one card, you can keep the camera booked out all of the time providing you have a SDHC card reader. The way I read it, the students won't be using this particular camcorder, but the requirement for the new camcorder is to use the same tapes as the old one so that it can be used to transfer students' recordings while other students are out doing filming with the old one. 1
mjs_mjs Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 The way I read it, the students won't be using this particular camcorder, but the requirement for the new camcorder is to use the same tapes as the old one so that it can be used to transfer students' recordings while other students are out doing filming with the old one. Surely once they hit pc/mac you can lose the tapes to the bin? If you hang on to compatibility for too long it'll stop you from moving forward. I would say - get all the fotage onto pc/mac, lose the tapes and go for sd/hhd recording, personally i would go for sd, but in a school i dunno if thats such a good idea. I was recently at a pro video shoot for a band After The Ordeal (just been played on XFM rock show), and they were using 4GB compact flash drives, and swapping them every 4-8 mins as they got full. Was a panasonic camera.
SteveBentley Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 I'd agree with what you say, but it means buying two new camcorders and binning a perfectly serviceable one...
laserblazer Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 I believe that both Canon and Panasonic are only releasing solid state cameras this year, no tape. That said, there should be some good deals on HDV models. Have a word with Creative Video > Trusted Professional & Broadcast Audio & Video Solutions > CVP.
Guest theeldergeek Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Surely once they hit pc/mac you can lose the tapes to the bin? If you hang on to compatibility for too long it'll stop you from moving forward. FWIW, as a semi-professional wedding videographer myself, you'll find tapes are still widely used in the industry. There won't be any 'compatibility' problems for quite a few years yet. The ONLY reason non-tape cameras have seemingly become mainstream, is because of the consumer side of things. Yes, many professionals do use card based equipment, but there are still many who use tape. Pound for pound, tape is also far cheaper to archive where archiving is required.
dayzd Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 AVCHD is the way to go IMHO. I know this is changing the discussion slightly, but how do you handle /edit your AVCHD footage, laserblazer; what software do you use on what machine? Do you do any pre-processing in your workflow before you edit? I have an AVCHD camera (an early Canon HDD model) and have found AVCHD to be much more of a pain to use than I originally thought it'd be - largely due to processing demands to play the stuff back!
SteveBentley Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 FWIW, as a semi-professional wedding videographer myself, you'll find tapes are still widely used in the industry. There won't be any 'compatibility' problems for quite a few years yet. The ONLY reason non-tape cameras have seemingly become mainstream, is because of the consumer side of things. Yes, many professionals do use card based equipment, but there are still many who use tape. Pound for pound, tape is also far cheaper to archive where archiving is required. I think flash/hard drive is getting more common for news where the fast turnaround is a huge benefit. Also many new build media facilities are "tapeless" - I think BBC Scotland's new(ish) Pacific Quay in Glasgow is an example.
Guest theeldergeek Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 (edited) I think flash/hard drive is getting more common for news where the fast turnaround is a huge benefit. Also many new build media facilities are "tapeless" - I think BBC Scotland's new(ish) Pacific Quay in Glasgow is an example. My point was, is that there is still a lot of tape based kit out there, and a lot of professionals using it. There won't be compatibility issues for a long time yet. To use another medium as an example, think VHS. We are now well down the road for DVD and Blu-ray (and still moving forward from that) but I still am able to purchase VHS equipment on which to play tape (we have a lot of tapes here we are transferring to DVD) Insofar as your average consumer is concerned though, VHS is dead in the water, and whilst I agree we are most definitely at the end of the road for VHS as a medium for new material, it is still very much a technology that can be obtained, albeit as a VHS/DVD recorder combo. AVCHD can be a right 'royal' to work with as someone else has said. I'm not entirely sure (because we work off tape based kit here) if Final Cut Pro can even handle some types of card based editing formats. I haven't the experience of trying, but I think there is ? hanging over it. . Edited January 22, 2010 by theeldergeek
RTFM Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 I know from experience that Premiere Pro CS4 doesnt like all types of compression that Hard Drive cams use. Whilst the compression may be in a format PP will accept, the playback will simply be uneditable due to it jumping etc. That said, the problems with tapes is playing it back real time to capture it. Pros and cons for both arguments I suppose but be careful what cam you move onto if you were going to use a video edit'ing software with it. We've bought Sony due to the fact PP has Sony specific preset settings within it.
dayzd Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 I know from experience that Premiere Pro CS4 doesnt like all types of compression that Hard Drive cams use. Whilst the compression may be in a format PP will accept, the playback will simply be uneditable due to it jumping etc. That's exactly the issue I've had to deal with. The compression rate is so high (the datarate is often less than DV), all but the newest PC's can't play it back properly in it's raw format, let alone apply any filters as well. I've resorted to editing with DV versions of my AVCHD files, then replacing them before rendering my final output. Also many new build media facilities are "tapeless" - I think BBC Scotland's new(ish) Pacific Quay in Glasgow is an example. I remember reading an article last year outlining one of the BBC's tapeless HD suites. Custom linux builds and huge SAS/SAN arrays, IIRC...
RTFM Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 That's exactly the issue I've had to deal with. The compression rate is so high (the datarate is often less than DV), all but the newest PC's can't play it back properly in it's raw format, let alone apply any filters as well. I've resorted to editing with DV versions of my AVCHD files, then replacing them before rendering my final output. We did something slightly different, convert all the files to .mov and then use the "mobile & devices -> ipod" preset in premiere and it worked fine. Just means converting the footage.
Guest theeldergeek Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 We did something slightly different, convert all the files to .mov and then use the "mobile & devices -> ipod" preset in premiere and it worked fine. Just means converting the footage. How long did it take, out of interest, and any noticeable loss of quality?
dayzd Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Just means converting the footage. True, it's not that difficult, but I prefer not to use converted versions in final output (which is why I use the workflow metioned above). Plus it slows things down!
RTFM Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 How long did it take, out of interest, and any noticeable loss of quality? Not too long, its just standard converting really. We use AVS Video Converter. The quality hasn't appeared to be any worse either.
SteveBentley Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 That's a very good point actually, I've got some footage which is in .mpg which I think came off a Sony Camcorder, with Premiere doesn't want to believe contains sound. I've had to convert it to wav in Super and hope that the lipsync doesn't break when I import both seperately and link them.
Guest theeldergeek Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Not too long, its just standard converting really. We use AVS Video Converter. The quality hasn't appeared to be any worse either. Not too long? How long? What I'm getting at is, whilst you are converting it, and all the faffing around that that often requires, would a tape equivalent been just as easy to capture from? My workflow here for tape capture : Put tape in Sony deck, set capture limits in Final Cut Pro, capture and go and get on with other jobs, come back, edit. OK, capture time has to be done in real time, but pretty much all of the projects I have to work on here are well under an hour so it really isn't a major issue. From a personal aspect however, tape capture is a pain for the weddings that I have filmed, as that is usually anything up to 10 hours worth to capture. But again, I just set it up, let it capture, go watch telly. In the word of Aleksandr Orlov, "simples".
Guest theeldergeek Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 That's a very good point actually, I've got some footage which is in .mpg which I think came off a Sony Camcorder, with Premiere doesn't want to believe contains sound. I've had to convert it to wav in Super and hope that the lipsync doesn't break when I import both seperately and link them. Premiere Elements, or Pro CS? And do you have Quicktime Pro? If you do, you can convert it to an .avi which Premiere will lurve... Also try MPEG Streamclip, that's a good converter which will give you compatible output.
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