School MIS Systems

[localzuk]

Correct!

 

There can only be one word for this! DISGUSTING

 

Can you see how that comes across as annoyed?

[Sivadam]

Can you see how that comes across as annoyed?

 

Does it say I am annoyed?

 

I am now starting to get annoyed with this thread so I'll leave it for a while!

 

See the difference?

[Dos_Box]

I thought that these Forums did not support any particular MIS and that blatant advertising etc was not allowed.

So why have the MIS Forums now become sponsored by a company producing a MIS?

Maybe they should now put this out to tender and sell out to the highest bidder!

 

The MIS forum was availbale for sponsorship, so Scholarpak offered to sponsor. Serco, Capita and anyone else could have done so, but none did. The same way SmoothWall sponsor the Internet Related and Filtering forum, or NetSupport sponsor the Classroom Management forum and Axel the Thin Client forum. Becasue it makes sense for them to do so. Anyone else could have done so too.

[LosOjos]

@Sivadam: you regularly come on here and advertise SupportNet and constantly attack anybody who says anything negative about Capita: if you can give it, learn to take it!

[GREED]

I'm not one generally to stick up for others on a forum, it is only words and you lot are more than capable of fending for yourselves!

 

However, I would say that there is a difference between having a point of view and defending that, and blindly attacking 'non-believers' without consideration for the argument, of which working with Sivedam for a number of years (albeit electronically) I would put into the former category. I would put most recent posters in this thread into that category...

 

Anyways -

[LosOjos]

I'm not one generally to stick up for others on a forum, it is only words and you lot are more than capable of fending for yourselves!

 

However, I would say that there is a difference between having a point of view and defending that, and blindly attacking 'non-believers' without consideration for the argument, of which working with Sivedam for a number of years (albeit electronically) I would put into the former category. I would put most recent posters in this thread into that category...

 

Anyways -

 

I agree with you that there is a difference between somebody defending their POV and attacking, but having frequented these forums for nearly a year now, I would say that 90% of Sivadam's posts are to shoot people down who have anything bad to say about SIMS, and 10% are actually productive/helpful, and it's becoming a standing joke to regulars. That is my opinion.

 

Back on topic: how many schools are using ScholarPack? I had a look at the demo on the website and it looks like a good start, but wondered how many schools are using it in it's current form successfully? How does customisation of that work; straight editing of the code or via an API?

[vikpaw]

Congratulations to scholarpack. I hope that having a sponsor will help us keep the forum impartial because there should be no other advertising, we all know it's been creeping in over the past year in subtle ways.

 

Having a sponsor doesn't mean that the site endorses a particular product, it just means that they have paid for the privilege to mention their products. We're all discerning enough to weigh up the pros and cons as can be seen in this thread amongst many. I'm sure any inadequacies will be slated just like with any other product as it's our way . The key point is that other companies shouldn't be drawing attention to their offerings, taking advantage of EduGeek.net 's prominence and standing, without stumping up the cash for the amazing marketing opportunity that it is.

 

Now, like graham said lets focus, it was getting really interesting until that interruption.

@losojos, lets start a new thread on scholarpack.

[scholarpack]

Back on topic: how many schools are using ScholarPack? I had a look at the demo on the website and it looks like a good start, but wondered how many schools are using it in it's current form successfully? How does customisation of that work; straight editing of the code or via an API?

 

All the schools we have so far have not required vast customisation outside of the package we offer (which is pretty comprehensive). Most customisation is handled in house because we have a SAAS model allowing us to roll out updates to all schools regularly and overnight, however developers in individual schools are welcome to get involved and write new modules for their schools or for distribution.

 

The online demo shows the Open Source version which is freely downloadable. Soon this will be changed so the demo shows the full enterprise version with more modules. So far, in 12 weeks, we have had over 750 downloads throughout the world of the source code. Due to the open source nature of this software we are not aware of how these downloads are being used! (apart from the positive feedback often from 3rd world countries strangely). However, presently we are working with 12 schools who are just getting going with implementing ScholarPack Enterprise (free for UK schools version) which we host and provide support for. The advertising on Edugeek is our first marketing push and we hope to sign up many more schools early next year. Obviously. we are a young company in the MIS market and we are fully aware that it may take some time to make a dent in the market. However, we have the funding, the resources and the will to do this.

 

Cheers

[Sivadam]

I agree with you that there is a difference between somebody defending their POV and attacking, but having frequented these forums for nearly a year now, I would say that 90% of Sivadam's posts are to shoot people down who have anything bad to say about SIMS, and 10% are actually productive/helpful, and it's becoming a standing joke to regulars. That is my opinion.

 

It is my opinion as well! And I am completely open about that!

I have constantly stated that I am posting here for exactly that reason! I naively think that there are now fewer posts that attack the software for no apparant or for misconceived reasons than there were previously!

Actually I had quite a good reputatio at first and it only moved into the red when posts that I suspected of being mailicious appeared! The support that I got outside the forums at that time was astounding! Having lost all the red aquares that obtained at the time I have since moved back into the green!

 

I wonder how long it will last!

 

Ha! Ha! - too late - I am Red again! I have got my reputation back!

 

End of thread again for me - unless of course somebody comes back at me!

Edited November 9, 2010 by Sivadam

[andrew.rose]

The MIS forum was availbale for sponsorship, so Scholarpak offered to sponsor. Serco, Capita and anyone else could have done so, but none did. The same way SmoothWall sponsor the Internet Related and Filtering forum, or NetSupport sponsor the Classroom Management forum and Axel the Thin Client forum. Becasue it makes sense for them to do so. Anyone else could have done so too.

 

 

I requested the cost to advertise on the MIS forum in late 2009 .. was told Capita had reserved it ... I'm not agreeing with anyone, simply pointing it out.

[oxide54]

cool story bro:rolleyes:

[PiqueABoo]

I would have zero chance turning around to my manager and saying 'we want a ZIS and need to sort out a SIF agent or 2, it'll cost us £1000+'. It just won't happen, I'd be expected instead to come up with a solution like I have now which polls the system periodically for data I want - for free.

 

So ignoring any clunkiness (or cost) involved in getting the data you want out of that system, what's the problem with polling? Is, at a time of your choosing, exchanging a few standard request/response messages with that theoretical "nice" system asking for those deltas since the last time, significantly worse than being sent the deltas one by one as they happen?

 

--

 

Yet again for horizontal within a school, I can see lots of cases for some kind of SIF-like-client -> SIF-like-service-exposing-the-MIS but where is that burning requirement for SIF Agents everywhere and a traffic-cop to route and keep on top of the (not-evident to me) complexity?

 

I keep asking this. Someone must be able to cite some real, practical examples, surely?

[penfold_99]

I keep asking this. Someone must be able to cite some real, practical examples, surely?

 

Link2ICT in Birmingham use SIF to provision users on to their IdP platform and their hosted Moodle. They use SIF as their schools use a mixture of CMIS and SIMS.net. There are some schools using the IdP to provision accounts on there local active directory domain. This allows teachers to login using there SSO ids.

 

Here is an article about the benefits of SIF SIF Strikes back « Quarkside

 

@scholarpack does your free mis include an api? is this api free for anyone to access? Is it hosted on a private cloud or is it on a shared cloud?

[scholarpack]

No not currently but we are working on a web services API for release early next year that small companies could use. It's not a priority at the moment. Hosted on a private cloud.

[PiqueABoo]

Link2ICT in Birmingham use SIF to provision users on to their IdP platform and their hosted Moodle. There are some schools using the IdP to provision accounts on there local active directory domain.

 

But that's all vertical isn't it? Recall I said "Yet again for horizontal within a school.."

[penfold_99]

But that's all vertical isn't it? Recall I said "Yet again for horizontal within a school.."

 

My hands are currently tied as i could give you an example but it would be seen as advertising.

[PiqueABoo]

PM me then, I'm on a genuine quest for enlightenment.

[EdWhittaker]

I'm on a genuine quest for enlightenment.

 

Ah, Grasshopper, to achieve true enlightenment, understanding and tranquillity you must first study the ways of the Shaolin monk ...

[marshharrier]

Then why are you talking about a 'centralised' solution which cannot be tailored to individual needs? Monolithic systems are not flexible.

 

You can't have it both ways - flexible education with flexible systems to back that up or a rigid 'everyone gets treated the same' with rigid pre-determined systems.

 

My idea ... that the government builds the backbone (after all it's them that want endless census data out of MIS) and then the private sector innovates and builds the components! It's then very much down to individual schools to choose the components they want to use and also NOT to be burdened with loads of things they never use (How much of SIMS does the average Primary school actually use .... 10%!)

 

This way education can be flexible to suit individual schools, needs, environments etc.

 

I agree with you that there is a difference between somebody defending their POV and attacking, but having frequented these forums for nearly a year now, I would say that 90% of Sivadam's posts are to shoot people down who have anything bad to say about SIMS, and 10% are actually productive/helpful, and it's becoming a standing joke to regulars. That is my opinion.

 

Difficult to disagree with this. The forum posts speak for themselves. I have had the presumption to criticise Capita on a few occasions and EVERY time I do, there is one person who can be guaranteed to jump down my throat. Seems a bit of a personal mission to me.

 

On topic - Interoperability absolutely HAS to happen with MIS and the players should be forced (by law if necessary) to co-operate (although they might appear to be on-side with SIF, it is IMHO a bit of smoke and mirrors and not proper engagement on the part of some!)

Edited November 13, 2010 by marshharrier

[GeeHubb]

My idea ... that the government builds the backbone (after all it's them that want endless census data out of MIS) and then the private sector innovates and builds the components!

 

Are you really suggesting that you would trust this (or any) government to build a school's MIS? When you say 'the government' precisely who in the government are you expecting to be tasked with the proposal? This would be the same government that are proposing to share aircraft carriers with other countries and not build any airplanes to put on them would it?

 

Personally I think 'the government' has far too much involvement with school data than is healthy at the moment. How many of you know exactly how much of your personal data is harvested for the School Workfarce Census?

 

(Sorry can't work out how to put another quote in!) RE: Primary Schools.

 

I am a Primary School Office Manager. I think you would be surprised how much we rely on our MIS. We (I) certainly use a lot more than 10% of it. I would say we are up to about 75% and rising and I would class us as an Average Primary School of a larger size (nor 320). We use SIMS and I don't mind saying that I wouldn't change.

 

What you suggest about choosing only components that we will use is exactly what we get with SIMS. We 'buy into' Dinner Money as an 'add on'. Also use FMS and Personnel. We have added on SchoolComms (okay I know that's not SIMS but it is a SIMS partner). We don't have a licence for timetabling; profiles; or exams.

 

Why do you all keep trying to re-invent the wheel? The biggest problem with school MIS is the woeful lack of understanding (in the Primary sector at least) of most Headteachers and SMT's who seem to think that their admin staff don't need any training or qualifications to do the job and offer 'peanuts' in salary terms! This lack of training is self-evident in many of the posts that you will see both on Edugeek and Supportnet.

 

Hope I haven't gone 'off topic' too far. In case you wonder about my 'credentials' for the abov POV, come February I will have been using SIMS for 20 years.

[GREED]

Not at all GeeHubb, although you could expect a backlash on your comment about the requirement from training for staff from certain posters...

[EdWhittaker]

My idea ... that the government builds the backbone (after all it's them that want endless census data out of MIS) and then the private sector innovates and builds the components!

 

I think I've said before, fine in theory but in practise every ICT project HMG gets involved in turns to dust. What would probably happen is that the 'backbone' would end up being so complex and convoluted with so many restrictions and requirements that it would turn out to be so difficult and expensive to work with that only the big boys would have the resources to do so (can you see where this is going ...?) that you would end up more or less with what we've got now.

 

On topic - Interoperability absolutely HAS to happen with MIS and the players should be forced (by law if necessary) to co-operate (although they might appear to be on-side with SIF, it is IMHO a bit of smoke and mirrors and not proper engagement on the part of some!)

 

Problem with efforts for interoperability (and single sign on) so far, it seems to me, is that major players are each trying to get their own solution adopted; so that they can effectively dictate the direction of travel. One of the biggest failings of Becta (and there were many) is that they tended to talk only to the big IT providers and didn't look below the radar to see what innovative and new solutions might be out there.

[EdWhittaker]

We use SIMS and I don't mind saying that I wouldn't change.

 

What, not even for something better and cheaper??

 

In case you wonder about my 'credentials' for the abov POV, come February I will have been using SIMS for 20 years.

 

This is part of the problem, if you don't mind me saying so. People sticking with what they know because it's all they've ever known and they are 'comfortable' and familiar with it is a natural human response, but it is a barrier to innovation.

[GeeHubb]

Not at all GeeHubb, although you could expect a backlash on your comment about the requirement from training for staff from certain posters...

 

Don't think so. I am talking about my experience. In a Primary we don't have the luxury of a dedicated MIS manager to handle the training requirements of the admin staff 'in-house'. I am the nearest we have, but staff training is not my responsibility and I just wouldn't have the time. We don't even have 'in-house' technical support. We rely very heavily on the helpline and training courses. However, we have no budget for SIMS training ...... Do you see what I'm getting at? We can't be the only school (Primary) where this is the case.

[GeeHubb]

What, not even for something better and cheaper??

 

 

 

This is part of the problem, if you don't mind me saying so. People sticking with what they know because it's all they've ever known and they are 'comfortable' and familiar with it is a natural human response, but it is a barrier to innovation.

 

You see I have a problem with the word cheaper. Something done on the cheap. That's what the connotations are. How are the cost savings being made. Would I have to sacrifice quality? Would the helpdesk be based in a foreign country? Would money be put into development and testing? Would the product managers be able to keep up with the shifting sands of government requirements?

 

You would have such an uphill battle persuading me that your product was better I'm afraid!

 

As for my being 'comfortable' with what I know. Well yes, I am, and I am not going to apologise for that! At this stage, I am not going to want to waste the 20 years of experience with SIMS that I have by going off to learn a new system - though perhaps it is what I should have done earlier in my career!