SIMS system requirements

[Medium_Dave]

Hello, all - wonder if anyone could help out a long-term lurker with a SIMS server question...

 

A school with which I am acquainted has recently been told that their SIMS server will shortly become obsolete, due to the fact that some upcoming, unspecified update will not work on it. I don't have the exact specs, but it's a competent (albeit unexciting) machine running Server 2003. It's in an average-sized primary school, and only two people there use SIMS.

 

I can't find out much on the system requirements for SIMS - and I imagine it depends to a large extent upon how it will be used - but the machine that the County ICT people are peddling seems ridiculously overspecced - 2xQuad Core Xeon, 16gb memory, 6x 146gb HDD, dual hot-swap 750 watt PSUs, etc, etc - for the low, low price of nearly 4k.

 

I cannot believe that SIMS is going from something what will run upon a fairly generic PC, to something that requires this overblown behemoth, in the space of one update. So, my questions are - what would be considered a decent machine for a primary school SIMS server? What update is in the pipeline, meaning that the SIMS servers all have to be updated (it's not just this one school - all the other primary schools in the area are being told the same thing)? What about remote hosting of SIMS? Is this a good idea, and if so, who would host it, and for how much?

 

And last, but not least - how can it be considered fair, moral, or even legal for County to insist that a small primary school buys its over-specced, over-priced juggernaut if the school wishes to retain support from the SIMS helpline there? On no account will they offer SIMS support to any server not provided by themselves...

 

 

Thanks for any advice,

 

-dave

[mounters]

The update they will be referring to is the requirement for SIMS to migrate to SQL Server 2008.

 

If you logon to Capita SupportNet you can get documentation relating to the hardware requirements required for SIMS, I agree that the specs you have provided do seem a little bit overkill.

[Sivadam]

I don't think SQL Server 2003 is supported anymore. SQL Server 2005 will not be supported after October 2010. Not sure about Microsoft Windows 2003 Server.

This does not automatically mean they will not work - though they ought to be updated asap.

[Boon72]

does this help

SIMS_hardware_spec_09.pdf

[localzuk]

The server spec may seem like a lot *now* but SIMS.net's requirements have increased a lot over the last couple of years. Looking at it from our school's point of view, we put in a new server 3 years ago, and it used about 5% of the CPU and half the memory. Now, it is using about 25% of the CPU and all of the memory. That's in 3 years. I would expect a server to do its job for 5 years really.

 

However, I'd suggest that in a primary, a single CPU would be plenty, even for 5 years. and 16GB RAM would be about double what I'd put in it for that time. The HDD's would seem a bit much - I'd be going for 4 - 2 RAID arrays of 2 each then. One for OS and one for Data.

 

So, it is a little overspec, but not hugely so. Probably to the tune of about £1k too much.

 

With the incoming requirements for external data access etc..., the demand on the servers will increase dramatically over the next year or so, so don't write it off straight away.

[dhicks]

I can't find out much on the system requirements for SIMS - and I imagine it depends to a large extent upon how it will be used - but the machine that the County ICT people are peddling seems ridiculously overspecced - 2xQuad Core Xeon, 16gb memory, 6x 146gb HDD, dual hot-swap 750 watt PSUs, etc, etc - for the low, low price of nearly 4k.

 

You can understand their reasoning - do it once, now, and not have to update the hardware again for 7 years.

 

The SIMS server works fine being run as a virtual machine (we've currently given ours about 60GB of disk and 1GB of RAM, it seems to be running fine), so you could use the above server for stuff other than SIMS - £4,000 sounds a bit more reasonable for an all-in-one machine for the whole school. If you have a Windows-based network you'll want Windows Enterprise or Datacentre (around £300 at education prices, pretty reasonable) so you can have more than one Windows VM.

 

The SIMS client also works just fine over Terminal Services, so county could host SIMS for the school and users could log in via a couple of remote desktop links.

 

Edit: add a couple of external 3-disk RAID-5 arrays on eSATA connections (get cheap 1TB drives and a couple of cheap RAID enclosures) and you've got enough central storage and processing power to be a domain controller, file server and print server, all in one.

 

--

David Hicks

Edited November 18, 2009 by dhicks

[AndyNDuffy]

Hello, all - wonder if anyone could help out a long-term lurker with a SIMS server question...

 

A school with which I am acquainted has recently been told that their SIMS server will shortly become obsolete, due to the fact that some upcoming, unspecified update will not work on it. I don't have the exact specs, but it's a competent (albeit unexciting) machine running Server 2003. It's in an average-sized primary school, and only two people there use SIMS.

 

I can't find out much on the system requirements for SIMS - and I imagine it depends to a large extent upon how it will be used - but the machine that the County ICT people are peddling seems ridiculously overspecced - 2xQuad Core Xeon, 16gb memory, 6x 146gb HDD, dual hot-swap 750 watt PSUs, etc, etc - for the low, low price of nearly 4k.

 

I cannot believe that SIMS is going from something what will run upon a fairly generic PC, to something that requires this overblown behemoth, in the space of one update. So, my questions are - what would be considered a decent machine for a primary school SIMS server? What update is in the pipeline, meaning that the SIMS servers all have to be updated (it's not just this one school - all the other primary schools in the area are being told the same thing)? What about remote hosting of SIMS? Is this a good idea, and if so, who would host it, and for how much?

 

And last, but not least - how can it be considered fair, moral, or even legal for County to insist that a small primary school buys its over-specced, over-priced juggernaut if the school wishes to retain support from the SIMS helpline there? On no account will they offer SIMS support to any server not provided by themselves...

 

 

Thanks for any advice,

 

-dave

 

I agree with Localzuk - if you only have 2 people running Sims you really dont need to layout for a server that would probably run a School with 200 - 300 users.

I would suggest a single dual/quad core, 4-8GB RAM, and if you really do only have 2 staff using it I would probably just suggest a single RAID 1 array.

The main thing you will need is robustness and enough power to handle the next few years updates.

Another suggestion would be to buy the box suggested and virtualise the Sims server and then you have room to add a couple more virtual servers on your new box.

[superfletch]

I agree with Localzuk - if you only have 2 people running Sims you really dont need to layout for a server that would probably run a School with 200 - 300 users.

 

Agreed, I expect the number of SIMS Users in school will increase largely in the coming years although the extent of this depends on your definition of an "average sized" primary school.

 

 

Looking at it from our school's point of view, we put in a new server 3 years ago, and it used about 5% of the CPU and half the memory. Now, it is using about 25% of the CPU and all of the memory. That's in 3 years. I would expect a server to do its job for 5 years really.

 

Agreed - the SIMS demands will get greater on the Server but the Server doesn't have to be just for SIMS, I'd wholeheartedly agree with expecting any new Server to do a job for 5 years.

 

 

A school with which I am acquainted has recently been told that their SIMS server will shortly become obsolete, due to the fact that some upcoming, unspecified update will not work on it.

 

This sounds like mis information or misinterpretation of advice to me as far as I am aware SQL 2008 will work on the box you described. Capita have no end date planned for support of Server 2003 at the time of writing (see attached file - end of support tab).

 

I suspect the LA have detected that the box isn't brilliant and you'll have to replace it sooner or later anyway. If they are actively involved in supporting the school then from their point of view it would be sensible to migrate the SIMS Database to SQL 2008 at the same time as replacing the box - two birds, one stone.

 

And last, but not least - how can it be considered fair, moral, or even legal for County to insist that a small primary school buys its over-specced, over-priced juggernaut if the school wishes to retain support from the SIMS helpline there? On no account will they offer SIMS support to any server not provided by themselves...

 

Again misinformation or misinterpretation here, it depends on how your LA and schools work with one another but in out LA schools are pretty much autonomous and can do what they like for hardware. What you've written here sounds like advice given for an ideal world and not a hard and fast - "you must do/buy this".

 

I hope this is some help...

SIMS_2009_Roadmap_14631.xls

Edited November 18, 2009 by superfletch

[matt40k]

It's stupid to have loads of cores, the sims database will only use a max of 2. It's better to have fast cores then nos.

 

Primaries totally agree, what's wrong with a 4gb ram, c2d system? Still central hostings the way to go, most LAs are doing it or at least looking at it, I know Capita offer it if not. Seems stupid to have a sims server if you have only a few sims users. Also takes away the problems of upgrades and backups etc.

[Medium_Dave]

Thanks for the help so far - very informative, and quite a lot to think about.

 

By the by - County are adamant that they won't provide any support, at all, to any system they've not built and sold (at somewhat over market price). I've not misinterpreted this; the question has been asked repeatedly, and at length. I don't see how they are able to do this when in every other instance, schools are obliged to get three quotes and use the cheapest...

 

Does anyone have much experience with having SIMS hosted for them? I'm pretty sure County do not offer this - is it correct to assume that Capita do? If so, what sort of support do they offer? I can't find much about it other than a contact number - very little in the way of facts and figures.

 

Cheers,

 

-dave

[matt40k]

I don't see how they are able to do this when in every other instance, schools are obliged to get three quotes and use the cheapest...

No... best value (TOC), not the cheapest, big difference.

[localzuk]

It's stupid to have loads of cores, the sims database will only use a max of 2. It's better to have fast cores then nos.

 

Primaries totally agree, what's wrong with a 4gb ram, c2d system? Still central hostings the way to go, most LAs are doing it or at least looking at it, I know Capita offer it if not. Seems stupid to have a sims server if you have only a few sims users. Also takes away the problems of upgrades and backups etc.

 

It might only have a few users now. But in 2 years, when parents are all getting their child's reports, attendance etc from it? That's a lot of extra demand.

[Medium_Dave]

No... best value (TOC), not the cheapest, big difference.

 

Indeed - I phrased that badly. Nevertheless, Country are neither. Were it not for the fact they tie their office support to their hardware sales, they'd not sell so much as a floppy disk.

[AndyNDuffy]

It might only have a few users now. But in 2 years, when parents are all getting their child's reports, attendance etc from it? That's a lot of extra demand.

 

Really! reports and attendance comming directly from the Sims server?? I would have thought they would connect to a seperate webserver hosting that kind of thing.

[localzuk]

Really! reports and attendance comming directly from the Sims server?? I would have thought they would connect to a seperate webserver hosting that kind of thing.

 

Yes, a seperate web server is usually involved, but the data still has to come from the SIMS server... Otherwise, it isn't realtime data.

[matt40k]

It might only have a few users now. But in 2 years, when parents are all getting their child's reports, attendance etc from it? That's a lot of extra demand.

 

 

What bit are you saying about? SIMS only needs a few fast cores over more cores or the statement about primaries only need good spec not extreme kit?

 

I can't see most primary schools out growing the "workstation" class machines in the next 5 years, assuming SLG or such is centrally hosted.

[AndyNDuffy]

Yes, a seperate web server is usually involved, but the data still has to come from the SIMS server... Otherwise, it isn't realtime data.

 

You might be right but I wouldnt expect the data to be Live Data - probably an overnight update or query run few times a day.

[localzuk]

What bit are you saying about? SIMS only needs a few fast cores over more cores or the statement about primaries only need good spec not extreme kit?

 

I can't see most primary schools out growing the "workstation" class machines in the next 5 years, assuming SLG or such is centrally hosted.

 

I was commenting simply on your statement regarding 'few users'.

 

You might be right but I wouldnt expect the data to be Live Data - probably an overnight update or query run few times a day.

 

No, that's not how SLG works. Also, I was pretty sure the government requirement was for on demand, ie. live, data access for parents. So, for example, they can log in at 9:30 and see that little Johnny registered like he should have.

 

This access will generate potentially a large amount of users, who would be able to log in and put quite some load on the server all day long. For us, that means a potential 500 new users worth of load on the SIMS server. And we have to have the capability to support that, because if it doesn't, then we're breaking the requirement set by the govt.

 

From Becta's Parental Engagement guide:

 

By September 2008 all secondary schools will

be expected to provide information to parents

covering achievement, progress, attendance,

behaviour and special needs, on a timely and

frequent basis – this should be at least once per

term. By September 2010 all secondary schools

will need to offer parents real-time access to this

information (including the opportunity for secure

online access) wherever and whenever they want.

http://publications.becta.org.uk/download.cfm?resID=35300

Edited November 18, 2009 by localzuk

[matt40k]

Ah... and I think Becta redefined "real-time" saying it's up-to the school to decide what they want it to mean. Specially when very few suppliers can do true realtime, most have to do it nightly.

[localzuk]

Ah... and I think Becta redefined "real-time" saying it's up-to the school to decide what they want it to mean. Specially when very few suppliers can do true realtime, most have to do it nightly.

 

Have you got a DCSF doc supporting that? I'd not heard that I don't think?

[matt40k]

No, just what my LA said, can you find the DCSF\Becta definition of real-time anyway?

 

Most LA are pushing UniServity, which updates overnight (or whenever) and we're told this covers the requirement for online reporting (or whatever you want to call it).

[superfletch]

I haven't got proof on the DCSF changing the guidelines but I had heard that to be the case too.

 

The data doesn't have to be presented specifically through SLG, it needs to be presented through something SIF compliant.

 

I'd have thought the data displayed to parents etc would be updated via SIF at regular intervals, the interval would depend on what data was being displayed - perhaps in real time, daily, weekly or monthly, essentially it would be updated however often is appropriate for what is being displayed.

 

Using SIF shouldn't hammer the SIMS Server as it will just query for the data now and then.

 

If SLG is used and hosted at the school then I think it draws direct from the SQL but don't quote me on that. This would increase usage on the SIMS Server.

 

I believe migrating to SQL 2008 will allow you to tell the Server to use more cores.

[AndyNDuffy]

I was commenting simply on your statement regarding 'few users'.

 

 

 

No, that's not how SLG works. Also, I was pretty sure the government requirement was for on demand, ie. live, data access for parents. So, for example, they can log in at 9:30 and see that little Johnny registered like he should have.

 

This access will generate potentially a large amount of users, who would be able to log in and put quite some load on the server all day long. For us, that means a potential 500 new users worth of load on the SIMS server. And we have to have the capability to support that, because if it doesn't, then we're breaking the requirement set by the govt.

 

From Becta's Parental Engagement guide:

 

 

http://publications.becta.org.uk/download.cfm?resID=35300

 

All true - but this guys a primary School not a seconday and I wouldn't sleep at night if I had external users connecting directly to any of my core servers. A web server or two would only need to query Sims every 10 mins or so to keep updated then your 500 parents connect to that (what ever that is).

[localzuk]

All true - but this guys a primary School not a seconday and I wouldn't sleep at night if I had external users connecting directly to any of my core servers. A web server or two would only need to query Sims every 10 mins or so to keep updated then your 500 parents connect to that (what ever that is).

 

That depends on what software you use to do the job. SIMS.net Learning Gateway connects direct, all of Somerset are using this, as are several other areas.

 

You can't really decide upon your server spec until you know what your server is going to be doing. What are the plans for the realtime access?

[matt40k]

I believe migrating to SQL 2008 will allow you to tell the Server to use more cores.

 

Nope. Express is 1 core only. Other versions have other limits. But you can only have 1 core per physical file. So sims.mdf will go to one core, sims.ldf will go to another master.mdf to another and so on. Doesn't really help if you've got each file on a slower core (say 2ghz) then if you have fewer faster cores (3ghz), cause the sql query will be only running on the sims.mdf which is only on 1 core.

 

Hope that makes sense, basically sims.mdf can't run on two or more cores.