BSF feedback please.

[stevef1]

Hi everyone,

i know lots have been said about BSF in its various forms, i work as network manager at a school that is going through the BSF process and has to make some decisions in the very near future regarding ICT managed service.

 

What i would like is some personal feedback both positive (if it exists) and negative (i know this exists) about your schools progress in through BSF, for example.

 

What’s your job title before and after BSF?

 

Who employs you before and after BSF?

 

What role did you play, if any?

 

Did the managed service work as expected? Who is your service provider?

 

What issues did you as an ICT support team face before and after BSF?

 

What impact has BSF had on your job role/description?

 

Have you lost members of your team because of BSF?

 

Have you lost pay due to BSF?

 

Who is your managed service provider?

 

Can i or a member of our team visit you for a personal conversation about BSF?

 

Anything else you can tell me about your BSF experience?

 

 

thanks, look forward to your info (if any

 

stevef1

[GoldenWonder]

Post BSF I think all ICT staff are gagged. Maybe not literally but certainly contractually!

[localzuk]

Post BSF I think all ICT staff are gagged. Maybe not literally but certainly contractually!

 

How do they manage that, as it would be a variation of the contract conditions...

[broc]

And pre-BSF & even during the BSF build staff can be treated like mushrooms.....

[broc]

How do they manage that, as it would be a variation of the contract conditions...

 

fear.... maybe it is self inflicted, or paranoia , but fear of retribution can prevent people speaking out ....

[GoldenWonder]

How do they manage that, as it would be a variation of the contract conditions...

 

Presumably even though your existing contract conditions apply, you would now be working for another private company and therefore will automatically be included in their 'disclosure' type of restrictions - on top your TUPE'd contract.

[p858snake]

Presumably even though your existing contract conditions apply, you would now be working for another private company and therefore will automatically be included in their 'disclosure' type of restrictions - on top your TUPE'd contract.

Um, no, they would have to sign a contract agreeing to the NDA.

[localzuk]

Um, no, they would have to sign a contract agreeing to the NDA.

 

But that would be a variation of their contract! That's my point, TUPE doesn't allow that AFAIK.

[p858snake]

But that would be a variation of their contract! That's my point, TUPE doesn't allow that AFAIK.

If they do it just after the TUPE process has been finalised, then it wouldn't be included within in the TUPE policies as to my very brief understanding of contract stuff.

[localzuk]

If they do it just after the TUPE process has been finalised, then it wouldn't be included within in the TUPE policies as to my very brief understanding of contract stuff.

 

No, that is still a variation. When you are tuped over, the company is legally required to maintain the same contract. They can't simply say 'right, we've tuped you over, now that you're ours, we can ignore tupe'. That's not how TUPE works. TUPE is law, not policy.

[mrmontymick]

But that would be a variation of their contract! That's my point, TUPE doesn't allow that AFAIK.

 

TUPE does allow for a variation of contract in two main ways - the transferring employee and incoming employer can negotiate a change of contact and agree terms as long as the change is not seen to be to the detriment of the employee.

 

Secondly under the ETO terms an incoming employer can vary the terms and conditions of employment. ETO stands for economic, technical, organisational. This being the three primary reasons that are allowed. It is not often used as the defining scope is quite narrow and can be difficult for an employer to defend and if judged to be grossly detrimental to the incoming employee can be a fairly sticky situation for the incoming employer.

 

However an NDA or confidentiality agreement can be seen to be outside the scope of the terms and conditions of employment as it can be judged to be an organisational policy agreement thereby negating any issue under TUPE guidelines.

 

So, to be blunt, yes you can gag people if you are 1. Devious enough, 2. Have good enough lawyers. Allegedly! :-P

[e_g_r]

All i can say is that post BSF you don't hear that much from people. Don't forget poor old DEAKS either

[ngreenwood]

I always find it funny that the people who are so 'knowledgeable' about BSF, TUPE and RM are never the ones who have been through it. The negative posts are always rumours or cases of “my mate’s older brother’s mate’s cousin works in X project, and he says all the staff are being laid off”

The reason you don’t hear from a lot of people post-BSF is because the majority of people see it as the great opportunity that it is and can’t be arsed with the hundreds of moaning posts on the BSF Forum.

[localzuk]

I always find it funny that the people who are so 'knowledgeable' about BSF, TUPE and RM are never the ones who have been through it. The negative posts are always rumours or cases of “my mate’s older brother’s mate’s cousin works in X project, and he says all the staff are being laid off”

The reason you don’t hear from a lot of people post-BSF is because the majority of people see it as the great opportunity that it is and can’t be arsed with the hundreds of moaning posts on the BSF Forum.

 

Citation Needed...

[Grommit]

Post BSF I think all ICT staff are gagged. Maybe not literally but certainly contractually!

 

Yes once they have been assimilated into the BSF collective we never hear from them again... apart from Deaks (good guy) form the Kent wave who spoke about it and the problems of BSF and was summarily constructively dismissed by the Service Provider after being TUPED or ngreenwood who seems to be a one woman RM propaganda machine :-)

 

I believe lower Technicians have a good career prospect if they laike to be part of a big machine but not so good for Managers as the management posts are spread across numerous school is not 1 manager per school ...

 

There was a blog about the BSF in Stoke Newington.. she was saying that their network manager had to reapply for a job in the RM pool

 

http://bsfatsns.blogspot.com/

Edited November 12, 2009 by Grommit
update.. paranoid of the Stazi accusing me of slagging off mambers .. seems they lots of people cannot take a joke

[bossman]

@ngreenwood:

 

Would it be too much to ask if you would run us through the BSF in your area and how you dealt with it and what were the final outcomes, be they positive or negative?

[ngreenwood]

Will do next time I have 10 minutes spare this aft.

[mrmontymick]

I always find it funny that the people who are so 'knowledgeable' about BSF, TUPE and RM are never the ones who have been through it. The negative posts are always rumours or cases of “my mate’s older brother’s mate’s cousin works in X project, and he says all the staff are being laid off”

The reason you don’t hear from a lot of people post-BSF is because the majority of people see it as the great opportunity that it is and can’t be arsed with the hundreds of moaning posts on the BSF Forum.

 

Don't have any direct BSF knowledge although the authority here is putting together a BSF bid so may well shortly!

 

Have had numerous dealings with RM and to be honest do think that they are below average when it comes to most things. Not the worst but definately a could do better - only my point of view of course.

 

On the subject of TUPE, as from my previous post, I have been TUPE'd myself twice and managed a TUPE situation three times for other people so do have a reasonable amount of experience in this area. From this I do have a reasonable amount of understanding of the outsourcing process, which from my understanding is a fairly common part of the BSF bid.

 

Outsourcing like most things has it's ups and it's down, the other poster is right to say that generally lower level staff tend to do better out of the process, more senior and managerial staff tend to encounter more issues during the process - I doubt the outsourcing involved in BSF is much different - outsourcing can be a good thing but it has to be handled both extremely carefully and very well by all parties concerned.

[AndyNDuffy]

Hi Guys

Thanks for all your comments and feedback. We are about to go into a BSF project so am very interested in how it is likely to go.

[mrmontymick]

I'm going to do this in general outsourcing terms as I've been through that process several times, I understand that it wond't be entirely accurate to the peculiarities and quirks of BSF but I'm hoping it will be similar.

 

What’s your job title before and after BSF?

 

In general lower level staff retain a very similar job title; Technicians stay as technicians etc. The only general exception to this is when the outsource company splits technicians into different support groups - for example a remote support group and a field service group. This often happens to reduce costs and to try to provide a more immediate remote service rather than having to have a physical body on the ground.

 

Who employs you before and after BSF?

 

Post-transfer you would be employed by the managed service provider.

 

What role did you play, if any?

 

In outsourcing terms I have been involved in the process on a more junior level (ie getting transferred) and then later managing being outsourced and also bringing in an outsourced team into my own team (i.e. I was the managed service provider)

 

Did the managed service work as expected? Who is your service provider?

 

What I would say on this is the managed service works as CONTRACTED not necessarily as EXPECTED. This is an area where a lot of people fall over - because they have not been careful enough when drawing up the contracts for the managed service.

 

This needs to be studied in depth and gone over again and again to make sure you have got it right before you sign on the dotted line.

 

What issues did you as an ICT support team face before and after BSF?

 

The area where most friction comes for lower level staff is the challenge of new working procedures and having to toe the line of the new MSP.

 

For higher level staff it's fitting in with the Corporate culture and ethos of their new provider.

 

For both it's the impact of often going from a very small team to a much larger one with a wider variety of scenarios and equipment to deal with.

 

What impact has BSF had on your job role/description?

 

Th thing to remember is that outsourcing does not have to keep your role exactly the same - you are outsourced on the same terms and conditions but it does not guarantee your role will be identical - often it is not - often this can be a good thing for you as it gives you the chance to do something new and more interesting.

 

Have you lost members of your team because of BSF?

 

There is nearly always loss during the outsourcing process - on a couple of fronts.

 

1. Staff panic before the process happens and run out and find a different job. Often if you are not careful you can lose good staff this way if they get nervous and you cannot allay their fears.

 

2. After the process has completed some people cannot cope with the change of circumstances and move on.

 

3. The MSP may decided that it doesn't need you and make you redundant - don't panic this is a very little used option and the evidence for it has to be bullet-proof or it's a world of hurt for the MSP.

 

Have you lost pay due to BSF?

 

You do not lose pay or benefits as part of the process - you must not be disadvantaged during the TUPE process. If your role then changes or the employer introduces a new whole company policy on say - company cars - you can be subsumed into this.

 

But in essence no, you should not lose pay.

 

Hope that makes sense and is helpful. Sorry it's not more specific to BSF.

[stevef1]

Wow thanks for the answers so far, if anyone wants to PM me please feel free to do so.

 

From what i understand some schools in the Bristol area have had a negative BSF experience anyone care to elaborate on this, first hand info is, of course, much better.

 

From my point of view i work at a school that’s about 40 years old its dilapidated and is a pretty bad state, the network has been “bolted” on, as a lot are i guess, as and when we have required new computer room etc so if a managed service provider came in as part of the BSF project and rewired the school etc the that does not seem to bad, from talking to several people the managed service provider will take the newer computers at the existing school and add to these to make the total computers for the school is this correct? I cant see this happening at our site to be honest.

 

What does the managed service provide can anyone tell me what they ended up with and how it works for them (PM me if you don’t want to post)

 

Who creates the new domain structure, does it become part of a large domain of all the schools in the project or is it managed on site by what’s left of the ICT Support team or will this depend on who gets the contract?

 

stevef1

[srochford]

No, that is still a variation. When you are tuped over, the company is legally required to maintain the same contract. They can't simply say 'right, we've tuped you over, now that you're ours, we can ignore tupe'. That's not how TUPE works. TUPE is law, not policy.

 

I don't know anything about the law concerning TUPE but surely it has to be possible to vary the contract after the changeover? If it wasn't, you'd be stuck on the same pay for ever, for example, and I presume that doesn't happen (or does it???)

 

You wouldn't expect your contract to be frozen for ever if you stayed working at the same school - there are often changes in small ways and sometimes major ways - so it seems reasonable to assume that the same could be true in BSF (but, as I say, I don't know anything about this so could be talking b*ll*cks!)

[localzuk]

I don't know anything about the law concerning TUPE but surely it has to be possible to vary the contract after the changeover? If it wasn't, you'd be stuck on the same pay for ever, for example, and I presume that doesn't happen (or does it???)

 

You wouldn't expect your contract to be frozen for ever if you stayed working at the same school - there are often changes in small ways and sometimes major ways - so it seems reasonable to assume that the same could be true in BSF (but, as I say, I don't know anything about this so could be talking b*ll*cks!)

 

My contract is set. The only time it has changed is if, by mutual agreement, both myself and my manager changes something. One side can't unilaterally change a contract, that's not how contracts work.

[broc]

As I understand it, if you are TUPE'd to a new employer, you do so under your existing terms and conditions & these remain in force unless the new employer can demonstrate that for organisational, technical, or economic reasons they must vary these to maintain their business.

 

These ETO reasons cannot be whimsical and must stand up to any potential challenge in an employment tribunal. It does however mean that in theory a TUPE'd employee could face relocation, pay cuts, or even redundancy despite TUPE protection.

 

There is another consideration; once TUPE'd your future career progression may be hampered by remaining on your pre_TUPE terms and conditions; in order to progress you may be asked to sign a new contract which is no longer covered by TUPE.

[mrmontymick]

As I understand it, if you are TUPE'd to a new employer, you do so under your existing terms and conditions & these remain in force unless the new employer can demonstrate that for organisational, technical, or economic reasons they must vary these to maintain their business.

 

These ETO reasons cannot be whimsical and must stand up to any potential challenge in an employment tribunal. It does however mean that in theory a TUPE'd employee could face relocation, pay cuts, or even redundancy despite TUPE protection.

 

There is another consideration; once TUPE'd your future career progression may be hampered by remaining on your pre_TUPE terms and conditions; in order to progress you may be asked to sign a new contract which is no longer covered by TUPE.

 

Some good points in there particularly the last one, that does often happen - if you move to a new position in the company, are promoted etc you will be asked to take on a new contract under the MSP's standard terms and conditions at which point you do lose any TUPE protection.

 

ETO's are difficult to substantiate a lot of the time which is why they are not widely used. To be honest I think employers, although most will deny this, tend to sideline TUPE'd people that they want to get rid of in the hope that they will get bored or p*ssed off and leave. Come to think of it they will probably all deny that(!).