penfold_99 Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I'm trying to find out if there is definitely is a SIMS.net ZIS Agent that is available without having to purchase partnership xchange? I have found OpenSADK library to interface with the ZIS, i would prefer to use OpenZIS as partnership Xchange is about £5000. Can anyone shed any light? Phil Neal perhaps?
Ian_ICTDS Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Hi, There is defiantly not a SIF agent for SIMS .net yet. Partnership Exchange uses an enhanced version of SIF so any agents it uses would not work with any other ZIS. I’m sure Capita will make one once SIF is given a definite green light. I’ve not heard any dates from Capita but another of our providers has said 12 months at the earliest before they make a SIF agent for their software because the future of SIF is still unclear. At the moment Partnership Exchange is the best solution available for distributing data around sites particularly for the 14-19 agenda. I’ve not seen the web interface yet but that would just seal the deal. In my opinion it’s well worth the cost. Ian.
penfold_99 Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 There is defiantly not a SIF agent for SIMS .net yet. Partnership Exchange uses an enhanced version of SIF so any agents it uses would not work with any other ZIS. Sounds like the office open and open office document standard happening all over again. I’m sure Capita will make one once SIF is given a definite green light. I’ve not heard any dates from Capita but another of our providers has said 12 months at the earliest before they make a SIF agent for their software because the future of SIF is still unclear. Capita should have built on to the defined standard as it is now before going off on a tangent!! At the moment Partnership Exchange is the best solution available for distributing data around sites particularly for the 14-19 agenda. I’ve not seen the web interface yet but that would just seal the deal. In my opinion it’s well worth the cost. well £5000 just to allow you to properly integrate internal system using a common dataset is a lot of money.
matt40k Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 £5k is cheap if you think about the extra admin work need if you didn't have it.
PhilNeal Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Partnership XChange would pass a SIF test (if there was one). However we have, as is permitted under SIF, included some extra tags that make it possible for schools to decide who they share data with. Plain SIF does not deal with many many issues - like a school granting permission for another school to see a data record. Imagine SIF broadcasting your bank account details to anyone that is listening. We have been commissioned to produce a SIF agent that can be used to provision AD entries by another piece of software. If you look on the SIFA site they detail how much SIF will cost schools and LAs ££££££££££££. Until the issue of funding is cleared I can't see SIF being adopted by LAs.
GrumbleDook Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I've got to both agree and disagree with you there Phil. I do believe that LAs and RBCs will do some more work on this after the POC work on Birmingham and NI. I do believe that RBCs as Regional IdPs for Shibboleth had the same issues but we are starting to see more stuff come online for that. Within EMBC we have seen the Edina Education Image Gallery and Education City come online, with work being done with Brittanica and LP+ amongst others. There is also the matter that for some LAs there is the issue that a ZIS also give Council IT Teams real access into parents and can help to make sure *they* have access to information too ... not just the education stuff, but health, welfare, etc ... That is a project and a half ... and getting SIF right can be a big bonus there. The issue is with the services providers (VLE providers, data analysis providers) and getting *them* to produce SIF agents to work with a ZIS. Right now there is Partnership Xchange (which uses an extended SIF agent to get information to and from it) and it is often easier for these companies to buy in (or continue to use) your Business Objects Model. It is tried and tested ... no fuss. *That* is where the real battle is going to be. It would be helped if schools that are using SIF for internal only work could run something like OpenZIS and get a SIF agent to connect to SIMS and then build their own SIF agents to push into Moodle and the like. Do you think that a version of the SIF agent that works with Parntership Xchange could be trimmed back down not to use the extensions and thereby used with OpenZIS? I have repeated that people interested in this work really do need to work with SIFA UK and Becta though ... @penfold_99 it might be better to take some of this conversation over that way and then come back once there is more information 2
matt40k Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 I think they're reinventing the wheel, like GrumbleDook said, often easier for these companies to buy in (or continue to use) your Business Objects Model. It is tried and tested ... no fuss. Surely Capita opening it up a bit would be better, saying that, it's pretty open now. I've not heard of any real API for other MIS systems (~waits to be corrected~). Side note, like the idea of Shibboleth, just IMO not v.well executed.
LawrenceRoyston Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 Groupcall offer a SIF Agent for SIMS and CMIS which has been adopted by Birmingham and the South West Grid for Learning. For more information, contact Groupcall.
matt40k Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 Groupcall offer a SIF Agent for SIMS and CMIS which has been adopted by Birmingham and the South West Grid for Learning. For more information, contact Groupcall. ...using Capita business objects. Does really echo my previous comment.
penfold_99 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Posted July 22, 2009 Groupcall offer a SIF Agent for SIMS and CMIS which has been adopted by Birmingham and the South West Grid for Learning. For more information, contact Groupcall. Will it integrate with OpenZIS? and what is the cost?
Ian_ICTDS Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 Groupcall offer a SIF Agent for SIMS and CMIS which has been adopted by Birmingham and the South West Grid for Learning. For more information, contact Groupcall. Gan the GroupCall agent read and write into SIMS do you know?
MattMitchell Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 An open interface is important - I can see the need to extend the standard to allow acces control, but I'd like to see a push to have that as part of the SIF rather than a "we've already done it our way - would you like to be a partner?" approach. At the moment, linking schools means a requirement for a common platform. This is good for business, but reduces choice and is directly counter to the overall aim of a common, open interchange framework.
matt40k Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 Rather Capita just started an open source project and put the business objects into that rather then repeating the work.
penfold_99 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Posted July 22, 2009 Rather Capita just started an open source project and put the business objects into that rather then repeating the work. SIF/ZIS is a better alternative to business objects, Capita's issue would be why would companies partner with them when they could just become a member of SIF UK? Joining SIF UK would allow companies to integration there product with SIF/ZIS, (which would then in turn talk to any compatible MIS) instead of writing an integration process of each MIS.
Ian_ICTDS Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 Back to OpenZIS, I’ve just been reading up on it. Looks like it is designed to only pull data from agents and not push it back. Might be useful for an authority that wants to collect a load of data from schools but not much use for real interoperability.
penfold_99 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Posted July 22, 2009 Back to OpenZIS, I’ve just been reading up on it. Looks like it is designed to only pull data from agents and not push it back. Might be useful for an authority that wants to collect a load of data from schools but not much use for real interoperability. On the face of it this could be a big problem, but one way in a standard why is a start. There is OpenSADK to allow people to interface with the SIF/ZIS.
Ian_ICTDS Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 This all started with a concern about cost. I’ve never seen how open source actually works out cheaper. I could spend a huge amount of hours finding a “free” open source ZIS and then more hours setting it up. Then set up and train a team to support it. I’m sure that this would end up costing more than the £5,000 Capita charge to do it all for me. This is the same reason I’m reluctant to start using Linux. By the time we’ve paid for consultancy and trained everyone up I probably could have paid for 10 years of Microsoft stuff at education prices. Oh, by the way, does anyone know what ZIS you get when you buy Partnership Exchange. Is it a Capita one or have they brought one from America or something?
localzuk Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 This all started with a concern about cost. I’ve never seen how open source actually works out cheaper. I could spend a huge amount of hours finding a “free” open source ZIS and then more hours setting it up. Then set up and train a team to support it. I’m sure that this would end up costing more than the £5,000 Capita charge to do it all for me. This is the same reason I’m reluctant to start using Linux. By the time we’ve paid for consultancy and trained everyone up I probably could have paid for 10 years of Microsoft stuff at education prices. Just to chip in on this... So because you're unwilling to provide training for your staff, you'd prefer to just carry on with whatever is fed to you rather than actually looking at the *best* solution, rather than simply the cheapest? Interesting...
Ian_ICTDS Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 Well I think I’ve been taken a little out of context there. I’m very willing to train my staff. I’d just rather train them on something that adds value rather than replacing something we have. So say I have two options - 1 - train my team in Microsoft Virtualisation or 2 - train my staff to run a Linux server. Option 1 delivers new useful services to schools, option 2 just changes back end systems and schools see no real benefit.
localzuk Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 Well I think I’ve been taken a little out of context there. I’m very willing to train my staff. I’d just rather train them on something that adds value rather than replacing something we have. So say I have two options - 1 - train my team in Microsoft Virtualisation or 2 - train my staff to run a Linux server. Option 1 delivers new useful services to schools, option 2 just changes back end systems and schools see no real benefit. Except lower licensing costs, the ability to do virtualisation using Xen on those linux servers etc... If your licensing costs over 10 years were £10k a year (not an unreasonable sum for a decent server farm with CALs etc...), that's £100k. So, you'd have that *on top* of your usual training budget. And training people to use Linux certainly won't eat all that up.
Ian_ICTDS Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 Erm, I don’t actually work in that area but I don’t think our costs are that high. I’m responsible for Interoperability and data exchange. My original point was that I think Partnership Exchange is the *best* solution and well worth the £5000 compared to the other options available. I have a small budget that I use to make the maximum positive impact on our schools. I assure you I take all options very seriously and Linux is not the best solution in my situation. Why are people so precious about Linux? You’d think I’d insulted your mom or something.
CyberNerd Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 So say I have two options - 1 - train my team in Microsoft Virtualisation or 2 - train my staff to run a Linux server. Option 1 delivers new useful services to schools, option 2 just changes back end systems and schools see no real benefit. Linux does virtualisation too. There are real benefits to linux other than cost. Our file servers do way more than windows fileservers can do, our email does the same as exchange. It's just a different path same as propriety unixes. long term it costs less, but short term costs are probably higher if you only know the windows way.
CyberNerd Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 Why are people so precious about Linux? You’d think I’d insulted your mom or something. people get precious when others talk about something they obviously don't understand
localzuk Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 Erm, I don’t actually work in that area but I don’t think our costs are that high. I’m responsible for Interoperability and data exchange. My original point was that I think Partnership Exchange is the *best* solution and well worth the £5000 compared to the other options available. I have a small budget that I use to make the maximum positive impact on our schools. I assure you I take all options very seriously and Linux is not the best solution in my situation. Why are people so precious about Linux? You’d think I’d insulted your mom or something. People aren't precious about linux. They're precious about money being wasted on solutions that don't do the job properly by people unwilling to invest in different systems, simply because they're used to Windows. That is what gets people annoyed, especially as it is taxpayers money being used to do that.
Ian_ICTDS Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 Again, not my area. I used a bad example. Can we get back to SIF. It’s far more interesting than my management decisions.
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