localzuk Posted July 16, 2009 Posted July 16, 2009 To be frank about this subject - the purpose of the press release was to do one thing and one thing only - push parents to complain to schools about this scary report. This would then lead to schools potentially purchasing more software. But to be honest, it wouldn't happen here. Everyone accepts that filtering is not 100%, never will be 100% and never can be 100% secure. What we teach is personal responsibility. I do manual spot checks, watching kids in the classrooms remotely, and punish any that act up - and that is a rare situation. Children are not left alone with computers anyway, so they have physical supervision at all times (just like with any other potentially damaging equipment in any subject which uses it (sharp tools in DT for example)). Your comment about your companies report is all well and good Mr McKeown, but you fail to address the main problem - we are nannying our kids too much. Part of growing up is learning from our mistakes. Sure, prevent the bad things like grooming, child porn and the like, but a kid stumbling upon a normal porn site? or getting past a filter preventing access to ringtones, music or online games? Come on, that is hardly going to warp their minds. In summary - children are inquisitive, blocking everything and anything will simply cause them to probe harder, and potentially do more dangerous things where they aren't supervised. If they do something they shouldn't in school, they can be seen by a teacher and will be told why they shouldn't - far safer. Software is not the answer. 1
synaesthesia Posted July 16, 2009 Posted July 16, 2009 Nail on the head. It's rarely the software that needs to change (or any filtering done via any other means). Children are not being taught consequence and discipline, which has consequences far more damaging than stumbling across something a bit too fleshy. That's not something that software can achieve - and the only people, I'm sorry to say, happy to say otherwise are those trying to sell such products. And let's be a little honest - who hasn't stumbled across something they shouldn't have as a kid. Who here is to know what Gordon Brown may have found under his dad's mattress one night as a young teenager. For all we know, the ensuing slap round the back of the head may be the very reason he's Prime Minister now. A little Chaos Theory there, but actions must lead to consequence.
mpe Posted July 16, 2009 Posted July 16, 2009 BBC NEWS | Education | School computers 'fail to filter' Once again we have a company that constantly harps on about how eSafety is important and schools are letting the side down (and out products will fix everything for you!) How many cases are there of people being actually harmed whilst using "The Internet"? Especially after eliminating fraud, which which dosn't tend to be applicable here. Do you want all kids to always use stabilisers on their bikes too, even to the point of they never ride a normal bike until they take a motorbike test? People do actually suffer injuries (including fatal injuries) using bikes. Even more so when using motorbikes.
mpe Posted July 16, 2009 Posted July 16, 2009 Oh boy. Image filtering. My favourite. One day someone will show me some that works*. On that day, we will put pen to paper and sign it up as an option for Smoothie. But not that good an AI that it objects to being treated as a slave
mpe Posted July 16, 2009 Posted July 16, 2009 As long as it's not harming the system, we couldn't care less what's on the students memory sticks, that is their responsibility and the responsibility of the parents. Things that do "harm the system" may not be the kind of stuff about which a fuss is likely to be made either. Nor are the worst troublemakers always the kids. e.g. video streaming sites can be far more disruptive than some teenagers looking for nude pictures.
Great_Scott Posted July 16, 2009 Posted July 16, 2009 Hi all, you'll see I'm a newbie here and to working in an educational environment having previously been a field engineer for a Yorkshire based IT solutions company for many years. I've provided IT solutions support for various customers around the UK including Hospitals, colleges, uni's and private sector companies such as casinos alike but none of it prepared me for pupils and their constant efforts to circumvent whatever security methods school IT admins have in place! It's like a war! So far this year the only effective methods I've had have been regular visits to the ICT suites, chatting with students, turning a blind eye to the odd trivial instance of game playing but having set consequences in place for blatant policy breaches such as using a free proxy for instance. It seems to be working when students know they are physically being watched but I've had more difficulty trying to get teachers on board to support me when some of them are deliberately breaking the rules themselves or allowing classes to do the same. I stumbled upon this particular thread because I wanted some info on various monitoring tools and suites from people who use them such as Ranger and the e-safety stuff like i-shield and Securus as part of my "duty of care" for the darling student users and I don't want to be smooth talked into a naff time consuming product by these companies trying to cash in on the whole internet safety for schools campaign. I've already trialled Securus and didn't like it personally, I've been contacted by a rep from Zentek this month, had the glossy brochure and arranged a visit for September because I was impressed by what they offered as it seems to be a case of "does what it says on the tin" but now you've got me worried after reading the posts here. They have offered to take me to other schools using their products so I can chat with those customers but I don't want to be bothered with all that if I can make a decision based on various opinions and user reviews I can find on the web myself. All these companies offer the same sales pitch about how their products are better than everyone elses and how their seamless installation will make my life so much easier and it does my head in! I havent got time for it but know I have to do something to further protect the network and the students without being confused by sales hungry private sector sharks preying on the education sector purely because they know that in the end they will get paid because we aint going anywhere! Wow, I feel better for writing that down, putting the soap box away now :0)
smadison Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 We have a full SonicWall NSA 5000 solution (firewall, content filtering, intrusion and gateway antivirus), ISA (on-site and at the LEA) and USB protection which monitors for virus’s and content that is not needed in the school but this did not do everything we wanted and have installed eSafe in stealth mode. Stealth mode allows us to monitor what is being accessed and guess what it works. We have caught and blocked many items which otherwise would have been allowed in by the other applications. We do not have to monitor it as the reports tell us what we need to know and act upon saving me a lot of time and it allows me to get on with other things and not have to worry about what staff and students are getting up to. The biggest problem is having staff ask us to allow more access to more content to questionable material which could offend some of the other staff and students as what is acceptable to some may not be acceptable to everybody else.
AngryTechnician Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 I've been contacted by a rep from Zentek this month, had the glossy brochure and arranged a visit for September because I was impressed by what they offered as it seems to be a case of "does what it says on the tin" but now you've got me worried after reading the posts here. As far as I can see, there aren't many posts criticising the quality of the product itself. In fact, in the first post, GrumbleDook says "I've not used Zentec products before but I know some people who have and they agree that they are pretty good". What they've come under fire for is their marketing approach more than anything.
apoth0r Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 Creating a hailstorm is not good business, especially considering that it's usually the techs that come under fire AND usually purchase the products?!!? Smoothwall is great, EMBC seems to have a lot of things locked down and a little time each week blocking anything else that pops up. Sanctions / discipline / consequences - Anyone writing any software for those?
alan-d Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 New research reveals that approximately ten percent of harmful multimedia content on school computers remains undetected If schools are getting it right 90% of the time then we aren't doing that bad are we? What is the comparison to the computers children use at home? Maybe the e-safety companies should start concentrating on pushing their products onto parents and guardians. In Birmingham that is happening. Birmingham Council are now giving out free software to help parents monitor PC/Internet usage. The battle has to be fought on both fronts!
smadison Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 Just so people know I have eSafe at home on my 12 year olds PC as it is too easy for something to pop up as they reach puberty. to which he goes
localzuk Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 Do you not think though, that all this mollycoddling will make seeing these things, when they are of age, a more shocking experience? Surely them finding things at a younger age, asking their parents about it and being educated is better than 'block it all!'?
apoth0r Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 Theres no one solution to any of this, every child is an individual and are not the same! This research is tainted by children fitting in with their friends, "yeah i saw something too :confused:" Just really don't agree with the report and it's intention to cause a storm. I'm unsure why they didn't bring up the wireless network "issues" again while they were at it!
Great_Scott Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 Maybe it is mollycoddling but I do my best at home to stop my own children being exposed to inappropriate, unpleasant adult material and themes even though I know they are going to be exposed to it eventually as they get older anyway. I fully expect my childrens school to take a similar degree of responsibility for them as well though so I will try my best in my job at this school to protect the kids of parents who don't want them seeing adult related content on school computers. I guess I'm contributing now to a wander away from the issue first raised. Do I think companies like Zentek should use BBC news articles to create a storm ultimately aimed at lining their own pockets? No....there are better methods of advertising.
CHR1S Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 If schools are getting it right 90% of the time then we aren't doing that bad are we? What is the comparison to the computers children use at home? Maybe the e-safety companies should start concentrating on pushing their products onto parents and guardians. In Birmingham that is happening. Birmingham Council are now giving out free software to help parents monitor PC/Internet usage. The battle has to be fought on both fronts! I have been a little wary of that software, seems too good to be true. The FAQ says they dont store any personal info with the non personal but something just makes me think browsing habbits, purchases or even personal information will be sold off etc to fund the "free software". Up to the parents I suppose
GrumbleDook Posted July 17, 2009 Author Posted July 17, 2009 Colin and I have agreed to have a chat since it was my rant that started this ... and I'll feed back when I can next week ... but I will repeat that my gripe is not the quality of Zentec products, but the marketing, the report within the BBC and the complete reliance on technology to address situations when you *have* to educate pupils about things.
alan-d Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 I have been a little wary of that software, seems too good to be true. The FAQ says they dont store any personal info with the non personal but something just makes me think browsing habbits, purchases or even personal information will be sold off etc to fund the "free software". Up to the parents I suppose Very true but it's free for 2 years and beyond telling parents about it, no administration for us and we do a little more to protect kids. Like you say - whether parents take it up is beyond our control.
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