Re-instal windows server?

[MrsGrinch]

Hi. I have had a head/It coordinator in one of my schools (I'm a roving techie) suddenly ask me to "wipe and re-install windows on the server - when you have time". My slot is two hours at this school.

 

I haven't yet had a chance to ask him why he thinks this is a good idea. I think this server was originally an Ergo one but somebody managed to club it back into being a vanilla 2003. I suspect it needs a clean and a defrag.

 

Can somebody help me explain why this is bad idea, if it's even possible? The last time I re-installed windows out from under a system was on an ancient

windows95 clunker where it didn't matter if it failed. As far as I know - windows is an all-or-nothing proposition. You get knocked back to the stone age if you re-install.

 

Cheers.

 

Michele

[kmount]

If it's the sole server then wiping it is a pretty bad idea unless you want to rejoin all of the machines on the network back to it again!

 

I'd check what exactly their problem is and work from there; it may just need a clean up as you say, or it may genuinely need to be reinstalled which will give you a lot of grief.

 

If there's more than 1 server (or you can shove one in even temporarily to "keep" the domain alive and hold the FSMO roles) it's as big a deal but to do in 2 hours? An impossibility!

 

Investigate and suggest options for them would be my first port of call.

[MrsGrinch]

Hi. Thanks for such a quick answer. It's the sole server, surrounded by a bunch of badly behaved classroom pcs, decrepit printers and old laptops.

 

I've just had another techie suggest that you can delete the primary partition and re-install back into the same space, but you have to re-do the network client connections. I would assume you then have to redo all the service packs.

 

He also said you don't call it "re-installing windows" - it then becomes "re-building a server."

 

 

Michele

[speckytecky]

Sounds to me like they need to revisit the hours they offer you if they want the work covered. 2 hours a week is hardly sufficient time to start anything let alone a task like this. I think a lot of smaller schools are now finding that if they have attempted to keep up with technology then their systems have expanded well beyond what the occasional IT savy teachers can fit in time wise and they now really need to be looking at employing in house on a decent contract?

[kmount]

Hi. Thanks for such a quick answer. It's the sole server, surrounded by a bunch of badly behaved classroom pcs, decrepit printers and old laptops.

 

I've just had another techie suggest that you can delete the primary partition and re-install back into the same space, but you have to re-do the network client connections. I would assume you then have to redo all the service packs.

 

He also said you don't call it "re-installing windows" - it then becomes "re-building a server."

 

 

Michele

 

You can call it throwing a spoon at a fork but the reality is that you're re-installing windows or as it's a sole server, rebuilding a domain; creating anarchy, killing kittens etc. It's all the same.

 

There's no point in deleting the primary partition if you're going to reinstall windows in the exact same place so I'm not sure why they suggested that.

 

Personally; as speckytecky said they either need to re-evaluate your hours, or at least provide you with some information upon why they believe this course of action is the best. - If the classroom PCs are misbehaving and the server is beyond repair then yes, you may wish to consider completely starting again but you won't get that done in 2 hours!

[powdarrmonkey]

I've just had another techie suggest that you can delete the primary partition and re-install back into the same space, but you have to re-do the network client connections. I would assume you then have to redo all the service packs.

 

He also said you don't call it "re-installing windows" - it then becomes "re-building a server."

 

He's an idiot. If you delete the primary partition, you're still deleting and re-installing Windows from scratch. In fact, during a re-install Windows Setup effectively does this anyway.

 

If you re-install, you will then be re-installing the entire of your network. You're effectively starting the whole thing again, not something I would do even in the summer holidays (well, not without good reason). All your users, all their files, all your computer accounts - the whole lot.

 

Sounds like the co-ordinator who asked you to do this imagines that a server is just like a workstation only bigger.

[kmount]

I tried to be diplomatic; a thanks to you for saying it as it was =)

[MrsGrinch]

Thanks, guys. All your answers support what I THOUGHT was true, but I was caught slightly off-guard by how casual the request was. (I do get a bit flinty-eyed whenever psuedo-techies start chanting "we do this all the time".) And did I say two hours a week? This school is two hours a month. It's the 330 kid school that has extravagantly shelled out for two hours a week.

 

I think in my twenties I would have gone in with all guns blazing and said, "Of course, sir, whatever you want , sir." Now I'm 48. After an initial confidence wobble ("Should I not know how to do this? What if I'm incompetent?") I start becoming my mother. That is, I starting wanting to say, "Who gave you that lamebrain idea and besides, you can't pay me enough anyway."

 

Cheers.

 

Michele

[MPorter]

Hi

 

I think your best course of action would be to get your IT coordinator to clarify why he/she thinks reinstalling the server needs to be done.

 

Look at other ways to improve the IT provision - You mentioned a clean and defrag (Consider an ASR backup, as well as ensuring your normal backups are OK first). This could help with server performance, but do the workstations need attention? E.g. when were they last re-imaged. This could be done in stages, I.E. a room, or a few at a time, without bringing the rest of the network down.

 

If you do find that you need to re-install the whole server, do it in stages, one per visit. E.g.:

 

Stage 1: Acquire a second box, install server, install all updates.

Stage 2: DCPromo the second box, and seize the FSMO roles. Install DNS as part of this process, and allow the records to replicate. Also, check AD replication is working.

Stage 3: Does the original server provide any other services to the network, such as DHCP? If so, then this role needs uninstalling, and installing on the second server.

Stage 4: Backup any home areas, shared drives etc on the original server. Check, Check and then Check again. Once their gone, their gone, pretty much. For files that are going to be in use between visits, get them restored to elsewhere, and re-point where necessary.

Stage 5: Use DCPromo on the original server to demote it. Then set Server reinstalling and doing updates, service packs etc.

Stage 6: Use DCPromo on the original, freshly reinstalled box, to make it a Domain Controller again.

 

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but a possible starting point? and an indication of the work you have ahead of you. Remember to allow for problems along the way, and factor this in. Also, plan each step, and detail the actions that you will need to go through. You could use this as a basis for negotiating additional hours if thats what you feel you need. Get all drivers, service packs etc ready before you start.

 

Last of all, best of luck with it all. This is no small task, and one I'd only feel comfortable doing with plenty of time, planning and research.

 

Maria

[MrsGrinch]

Maria - how nice to see another lady techie! That list of steps alone will be enough to silence him. I've heard from my boss in the meantime. He said that the school willl have to book two people for a full day if they want the server re-built. This is a common problem - people who can cope with the pc at hom e think that a school network is just more of the same. The schools I have at least are the ones who realise they need some help. On the local grapevine I hear about schools where the head is going it alone, only for the next successor to be left with a train wreck. I heard from one refugee teacher about a school where they just locked the door on the IT suite because the last computer finally died.

 

Michele

Did I tell you the one about the teacher whose whiteboard sound hadn't worked for two years because the audio cable was in the wrong jack......

[contink]

I think the easiest way to resolve this is going to be as follows:

 

1. Shutdown the server.

2. Tour school to check that everyone is ok

3. I then predict you'll discover that everyone can't do a damned thing and you'll be wandering back to the server to restart it again.

 

From there on in you then slap the IT co-ord silly and point out that this sort of thing usually takes a week or more to get tweaked and peaked just so'.

 

edit: Whoops... forgot step 3a.

Point out the problems caused by server being offline to ICT coordinator before restarting. THEN slap them silly

Edited January 4, 2009 by contink

[MPorter]

Hi

 

Stage 1: Acquire a second box, install server, install all updates.

Stage 2: DCPromo the second box, and seize the FSMO roles. Install DNS as part of this process, and allow the records to replicate. Also, check AD replication is working. Etc

 

Maria

 

I think the easiest way to resolve this is going to be as follows:

 

1. Shutdown the server.

2. Tour school to check that everyone is ok

3. I then predict you'll discover that everyone can't do a damned thing and you'll be wandering back to the server to restart it again.

 

From there on in you then slap the IT co-ord silly and point out that this sort of thing usually takes a week or more to get tweaked and peaked just so'.

 

I like continks way better:D

[MrsGrinch]

This is the coordinator who wanted me to "kick off all the smartboard software on all the teachers laptops to download the full gallery".

Over wireless.

Mid morning.

 

Do you think he'd see the problem?

 

Michele

[chrbb]

I think in my twenties I would have gone in with all guns blazing and said, "Of course, sir, whatever you want , sir." Now I'm 48. After an initial confidence wobble ("Should I not know how to do this? What if I'm incompetent?") I start becoming my mother. That is, I starting wanting to say, "Who gave you that lamebrain idea and besides, you can't pay me enough anyway."

 

I'm exactly the same - my head commented the other week that I don't make any decisions until I've thought about it for at least a week, priced all options, looked at what other people do, checked edugeek (of course) and worked out all alternatives! It wasn't a criticism, I hope:) I also know my limitations and wouldn't even comtemplate wiping a server to reinstall without having some sort of help I could call upon and at least three clear days to do it in.

I think as the others have said I would explain the intricacies of a server to the head and just do a 'clear up' and tidy up, update etc. Then suggest some investment is made in ICT for a new server, but as they only have 2 hours a month ICT support ICT is obviously not a priority:) What exactly do you get done in 2 hours a month?

[BaccyNet]

This ICT Co-ordinator didnt happen to say they 'know someone who does this all the time and could get them to do it'? I get this all the time. Even had a member of staff bring in this person to show me they could do something. They werent in the building very long once they spoke to me though!

 

Of course he could just take the server to pcworld...

[MrsGrinch]

Remove eight sheets of paper so tightly compacted into the fuser of an

okidata printer that I had to do the last four with tweezers.

 

That, and the magenta and black catridges were in the wrong slots. They hadn't minded the modern art all that much until they tried to print union jacks.

 

Michele

[MrsGrinch]

This ICT Co-ordinator didnt happen to say they 'know someone who does this all the time and could get them to do it'? I get this all the time. Even had a member of staff bring in this person to show me they could do something. They werent in the building very long once they spoke to me though!

 

Of course he could just take the server to pcworld...

 

Been there. Had that. Wound up screaming in the art supplies cupboard.

I heard about a techie who once did really take a server home over the weekend!

[kmount]

I heard about a techie who once did really take a server home over the weekend!

 

I've done it ... takes a seriously bad series of events to cause that though =)

[chrbb]

Sadly I've also done it:) although it was a redundant server that had just been replaced I took it home with the backup to practice restoring it:D

[dhicks]

"wipe and re-install windows on the server - when you have time". My slot is two hours at this school.

 

Okay, two hours is pushing it a bit, but you could take a backup image of the server's harddrive (this assumes you have a suitably sized storage area spare somewhere, of course), wipe said server, install a virtual machine system of some kind, then set up a VM to restore the original server disk image to. You can then set a second VM up (you'll need a second Windows Server license, of course, and possibly need to buy new CALs) to install a fresh domain controller to and transfer functionality over to bit by bit. You could probably upgrade the disk and RAM of the server before installing the VM system while you're at it. I'm planning to do this with our SIMS server tomorrow, but I've got all day and I've had a spot of practice on another couple of machines recently.

 

--

David Hicks

[MrsGrinch]

Hi David. I need to lie down with some paracetemol after even reading that. I have no experience building servers, or using virtual machines, unfortunately. There is an awful lot of redundant kit (including servers) lying around schools - I may see if I can mooch some of it to practice on!

 

Did you learn by going on training, or just diving in?

 

Michele

[jamesb]

Hi David. I need to lie down with some paracetemol after even reading that. I have no experience building servers, or using virtual machines, unfortunately. There is an awful lot of redundant kit (including servers) lying around schools - I may see if I can mooch some of it to practice on!

 

The reason its referred to as building a server rather than just reinstalling Windows is because building a server also includes setting up all of the network configuration as well. If you have exact documentation of the original setup of the network, then it might be possible to get Windows reinstalled in two hours. Next month you could go back in and use their careful documentation to reconfigure the server in the two hours then. Following that you could probably do a quick run-around and rejoin the workstations to the network the month after.

 

That's assuming they've got a very simple network setup with maybe thirty workstations. And that they don't have individual user accounts for users which you'd have to recreate. Plus of course you'd have to reinstall any server-based software.

 

These things aren't actually that hard to do if you've had a little practice, which you can get by throwing yourself in at the deep end (pick up a low-end budget server, you can get them for around £100, and a trial version of Windows Server) and playing around a while. Use Google and some books and you can pick up the basics in a few days if you're going flat out, a few weeks if you put in an hour here and there.

 

Did you learn by going on training, or just diving in?

 

By spending far too many of my formative years working on computers, diving in and playing with them, and a fair bit of training mixed in. Not necessarily in that order or priority.

[dhicks]

I have no experience building servers, or using virtual machines, unfortunately. There is an awful lot of redundant kit (including servers) lying around schools - I may see if I can mooch some of it to practice on!

 

Sounds perfect. Only problem with older kit is that newer processors now have hardware support for virtulisation, allowing you to pretty much plug-and-play with virtual machines. With older processors you might have to make sure your VM's operating system knows it's running as a VM, which can be tricky with Windows.

 

Did you learn by going on training, or just diving in?

 

I just got on and figured it out. Personally, I went for Linux-based virtualisation, as it's free - I have a bunch of machines all running CentOS and Xen. Lots of people on this forum seem to like VMWare. VMWare, and probably a bunch of other virtulisation vendors, will be at BETT, if that's any help.

 

One advantage of using the open-source version of Xen is that you can use it along with stuff like DRBD mirrored volumes to provide failover support, so if one machine conks out another simply carries right on. It might be worth trying to set up a couple of old machines as virtual machine servers, see if you can find an extra network card to stick in each one and get them to mirror data between them.

 

--

David Hicks

[MrsGrinch]

Documentation? You mean, like, stuff written down? Books? Notes? I've never seen any of any kind in a primary school, especially concerning networks. I often have schools ask me install to software they already have, or I end up giving the IT coordinator a session called "Meet your equipment." One school recently had their wireless network re-done. My handover consisted of a pile of empty boxes and a post-it note.

 

This is my biggest worry about re-doing anything. I don't know if I can get them back to where they are because I don't know where that is!

 

Michele

[jamesb]

Since its their one and only server your best bet is probably to refuse to do anything major to it. Some basic defragging and clearing out some of the junk it is doubtless filled with would probably be a good start.

 

Either way though they need to tell you exactly what they think 'reinstalling Windows' will fix.

 

As to documentation I'd honestly have been more surprised if they'd had any. You could always use your two hours to take notes on how their network's set up, a quick network map and basic outline of the AD structure would make it much easier when you or someone else comes in to actually rebuild the whole thing.