Moodle and Assessment Manager/Sims

[Mintsoft]

Nice easy topic for a friday now.

 

The ICT Coordinator has mentioned to me about getting a VLE up and running BUT has mentioned that the RM effort (Kaleidos is it?) integrates itself with SIMS etc for merits, test scores etc etc. I was wondering if anyone has made a module or anything for Moodle that would provide this functionality. I'm really trying to avoid even more RM Crap on this system ;_;

 

Cheers

Mint

[webman]

Geoff's post in the Moodle vs. Kaleidos thread.

[Mintsoft]

Ah, like that is it :/ There has to be someone who's put in the work to integrate it in some way. Isnt SIMS just running off an SQL server on the admin server? so it cant be that hard to integrate it can it........

[Geoff]

Careful there. I suspect Captia have patents covering that sort of thing. You'll probably invite a lawsuit.

[Mintsoft]

hmm maybe, I'll have to check the licencing agreements etc.

I hate Capita they're just so absolutely CRAP its unbelievable

[CyberNerd]

talking SQL is illegal? what do you mean - We can only access our data through their system and not write your own frontend? what about regularly dumping the database regularly int MySQL then grabbing the data. Surely they couln't patent a database structure?

[Mintsoft]

talking SQL is illegal? what do you mean - We can only access our data through their system and not write your own frontend? what about regularly dumping the database regularly int MySQL then grabbing the data. Surely they couln't patent a database structure?

Who knows, there must be a reason why noone has made one yet. The problem with dumping it out, is I'd need to write to the database as well.

 

Cheers

[Geoff]

Assuming the patent exists of course, I've not checked.

 

Anyway, while the patent might not be valid you would still have a lengthy and expensive legal battle in court ahead of you to prove this point and get the patent revoked. Capita would likely countersue for loss of earnings and patent infringment. So if you did lose, you'd be talking hundreds of thousands if not millions in damages.

 

Alternatively, you could just pay royalties. A much cheaper option

 

Anyway the patent system is horribly broken.

[CyberNerd]

maybe just the database is complicated. SQL should port straight into MySQL btw. I seen various MSSQL 2 MySQL scripts floating around.

Threes probably not much to be gained from doing it this way, but i've never learned SQL properly:

 

does anyone know the MSSQL equivilent of

 

show tables; 
show databeses;

 

navigating MSSQL on the CLI seems almost impossible (to me)

[webman]

Don't you have to have a developer's license from Capita to be able to legally/officially connect to the SQL DB that SIMS runs on?

[Geoff]

yeah, I'd seriously suggest you check your EULA/Licenses before you go any further.

[MkII]

Front ends to the SIMS .net SQL database exist in the form of Pisys and Lisl for example.... connections to the live data. So someone has done something similar.

[CyberNerd]

so let me get this right...

Becta produce a formal specification for VLE's stating that they should be able to talk to the MIS and MIS vendors (SIMS) will only allow licence holders to talk to the MIS. - Which no-one other that licensees of Capita can do.

 

Or am I completely off track?

[Geoff]

Correct, otherwise you risk patent lawsuits and being sued into oblivion.

[DMcCoy]

If you want to access sims data you need to use the sims APIs. To use the sims APIs you need a license. Have you ever looked the number of tables used by sims? You can use to profiler with sql server to see how huge some of the queries are.

 

There are 779 tables in the sims database (at least in the version we are running)

[webman]

Details here

[Chafftech]

If you want to access sims data you need to use the sims APIs. To use the sims APIs you need a license. Have you ever looked the number of tables used by sims? You can use to profiler with sql server to see how huge some of the queries are.

 

There are 779 tables in the sims database (at least in the version we are running)

 

We run a query regularly to pull data from the tables in sims to populate an Access DB so that we can run intranet room booking, pupil and staff roll asp pages with it. I can confirm that there is a lot of tables (maybe 779!) and it took ages to piece together which table did what. I assure you it will not be easy to integrate moodle with sims - but it is possible.

 

What data is it that we are supposed to integrate into VLEs from sims? levels etc?

[Mintsoft]

Details here

F*CK ME!

seems a bit steep that does.

 

Mint

[DMcCoy]

The issue is, you aren't allowed to pull data from the sims database, capita only want people to access it with their APIs, even bromcom has to use the APIs (you have to install sims on the server)

[TechMonkey]

The issue is, you aren't allowed to pull data from the sims database, capita only want people to access it with their APIs, even bromcom has to use the APIs (you have to install sims on the server)

 

Problem I have with all this is that if you create a read only user then no damage can be done, so whats the problem, and that it is our data yet we have no access to it. Couldn't schools be given the API's (even for a small cost) or a cut down version to access the data. When you think how much intranet and online stuff we are all starting to do, pupil and student data access is becoming more and more essential and I for one don't want to have to maintain CSV exports from SIMS!

[DMcCoy]

I assume its one of the license terms, either you agree to it or don't use the software. I'm not saying what they do is right, just looking at the technical aspects of the license and any repercussions.

 

Capita can look at it like this: You are currently getting benefits from their product in a way which you have not licensed by accessing the data that they have stored in a specific manner.

[mighty.grey.eagle]

Two points.

 

The first being that the data is the schools and they should be able to do with it what they want (as long as the DPA is being followed). So why not go to a 1 day old backup copy and work on that. There is no way that you can do any harm and it is unlikely that up-to-date info would be required. Working with live data would be problematic to say the least.

 

Secondly. The recent VLE requirements say that should be a two way flow of information between the VLE and the Management programs (like SIMS). I went to a meeting where Capita representatives said that they would provide whatever links are required. Having said that I suspect that they would be the bare minimum since they have a VLE of their own. Or am I being cynical?

[Geoff]

I don't see how that VLE requirement can ever be satistfied in the current climate other than by a completely OSS MIS/VLE system. There's simply no incentive for comercial companies to co-operate with each other (let alone OSS like Moodle) and plenty of profit related reasons to resist furiously.

[webman]

Yes I would say you were cynical, but with good reason for it. These locked formats and protocols help nobody but themselves, in my opinion. Obviously business is business, and MSFT didn't get where it is today without a bit of vendor lock-in. But I'm not saying I agree with it, because I don't - not in the slightest.

[Mintsoft]

What have I started? Everybody getting friday tensions out their systems?

 

I'm thinking I might have to accept defeat on this one and just accept that Moodle can't be integrated into SIMS without spending as much as buying something crap (aka Kaleidos). Shame though

 

Have a good weekend everyone

Mint