Whole room for £4500 - possible?

[jcollings]

Thanks for all the replies folks. Thin client sounds like a plan but we're a bit short on manpower for getting the whole system setup.

 

I reckon second user is probably the best bet. Hopefully once we're out of the deficit spending will go back to normal again.

 

Re: monitors. I've got no preference for them being wide or 5:4. It was jsut all that seemed available when looking at new systems.

 

Cheers

 

Thin Client really isn't hard to setup and as others have said will probably save you shed loads of time in the end.

 

Just for info Misco had some 15" widescreens yesterday for £35 a pop!

[Bezwick]

Sorry mate i don't know of any specific guides to help you, probably best buying a book and reading through it if you have never done it before.

However i can warn you of a few things to watch out for.

 

Server OS

 

First you need to decide which server OS to use, each one having advantages and disadvantages.

For example

Windows Server 2003 Std (32Bit).

Good compatability with applications (Moving from 98 you will have to think about compatability for your existing software).

However Limited to 4Gig of Ram, and limited expansion opportunities.

 

Windows Server 2003 Std (32Bit)

Less compatability with older programs but can use more memory.

 

Windows Server 2003 Ent (32Bit)

Good balance of Compatability and can use up 32G of ram i think (Might be 16) This is what we use. Draw back is only 2 allowed for use with the Kernel.

 

Windows Server 2003 Ent (64Bit)

Allows for more efficent use of resources, however again may have compatability issues with legacy programs.

 

Windows Server 2008

I orginally tried to setup our terminal server with this but found that alot of our older programs wouldn't work with it. However could be worth looking at.

 

Server Specs, As you would expect the more powerful the better.

 

Installation

Hide the system drive with GPO's, but make the C: drive big as the documents & settuings folder will probably get quite big. (we scheduled delprof to delete it once every two months). If you want to move doc's & settings default location to another drive as far as i am aware it can oly be done during install.

 

That should get you started but, its not that difficult, but expect to reinstall your server a couple of times until you get it right.

[zakthetech]

OUCH i thought our budget was tight this year but that's painful.

 

out of the two sudgestions so far i recon that thin client would suit you the best, yeah the server costs a bit more and you may need to get in outside help for the setup but adding extra stations in the future once it is setup shoule be more economical for you.

 

Also remember average refresh rate for thin client is 10 years (or when the monitor breaks).

[reggiep]

I just bought 30 brand new computers for our suite for £4860.

We bought asus eee boxes and they are doing us just fine!

[dhicks]

I feel for you. We currently have ~25 spare P4 machines (1.7ghz, 256MB, 20GB) that we probably will be disposing of/donating/bulk selling cheaply.

 

Heck, there's your solution then - stick some second-hand (or new, even) TFT screens on those, upgrade the RAM a bit (probably add another 256MB at £10 each) and you're away. Probably have money left over at that rate.

 

For thin client, you don't have to spend money on licenses - Edubuntu is free, designed for education, and has all the stuff to do thin-client computing built right in. Bargain.

 

--

David Hicks

[dgsmith]

Although we haven't decided anything yet, the chances are we would soon look to sell them around £40-£50 each (hardware only). They run XP fine and as dhicks said can be made to look better (and perform a bit better) for very minimum cost, yet we just don't require them anymore.

 

Seems wrong that we have these computers wasting away and you're struggling desperately to get your hands on anything!

[dhicks]

Although we haven't decided anything yet, the chances are we would soon look to sell them around £40-£50 each (hardware only). They run XP fine and as dhicks said can be made to look better (and perform a bit better) for very minimum cost, yet we just don't require them anymore.

 

Check eBay to get an idea of the going rate for a refurbished machine complete with Windows XP Pro license - seems to be about £50 all-in with postage, so probably a bit less than that is fair if someone's going to come and pick them up.

 

This will take a bit more by way of effort than thin-client, mind - you'll have to get the machines, haul them into your computer room, upgrade the RAM, get Windows XP reinstalled on all of them (you can't copy one image around unless you have a bulk license agreement), install your software, etc.

 

--

David Hicks

[dgsmith]

For me, Thin Client is like Marmite, and I don't like marmite (but this isn't me who is in this situation)!

 

Even if I were, i'd still look for proper 2nd user machines and get them built properly - I personally don't see what all the hype with thin client is all about! The figure I put before was just a guesstimate; I hadn't done any research on that and obviously we would do before a decision like that would be made. Anything is better than the nothing we have always got in the past!

 

Maybe there are local schools who have surplus stock lying around that is half-reasonable?

[dhicks]

For me, Thin Client is like Marmite, and I don't like marmite (but this isn't me who is in this situation)!

 

Depends on exactly what you're going to use them for. Saying that, dedicated thin client machines are getting to be a silly price - like, more than a netbook, which seems silly. Which is a good point - could just buy 22 netbooks at £200 each? Clear all the PCs out, cable tie a couple of network cables and power cables to each desk, then just have the netbooks themselves in a filing cabinet ready to be dished out when a class comes in.

 

--

David Hicks

[CyberNerd]

dedicated thin client machines are getting to be a silly price - like, more than a netbook, which seems silly. Which is a good point - could just buy 22 netbooks at £200 each?

 

a valid point TC computers are becoming very powerful, we recently bought 1.6GHz Intel Atom motherboards (£45) as thin client, with 2GB Ram (£15), with a case and monitor they are just over £200 each - but can happily run XP if we add a hard disk to them. We are still using them as TC though, the extra admin work required with XP puts the support costs up.

[Ric_]

Even if I were, i'd still look for proper 2nd user machines and get them built properly - I personally don't see what all the hype with thin client is all about!

 

The whole point about thin client computing is to provide a SUSTAINABLE computing model.

 

I have 400 client devices. Not all of these need to be capable of 3D modelling or music composition. It would be a waste of money and a nightmare to maintain. Instead, I use cheap thin clients (with a 10 year lifespan rather than 3 year life) where I can and this leaves me money to buy better computers for the specialist jobs and reduces the management overhead on a site with 7 buildings.

 

I'm not saying that thin clients are for everyone... it just annoys me when I see people dismissing technologies (this includes virtualisation, alternative OSs, open source software, etc.) just because they don't fully understand them or they fear change.

 

[mrbios]

I'm not saying that thin clients are for everyone... it just annoys me when I see people dismissing technologies (this includes virtualisation, alternative OSs, open source software, etc.) just because they don't fully understand them or they fear change.

 

 

amen to that! (though i will dismiss alternative OS's in a school environment )

[Butuz]

Yep the reason I have gone from 0 - 100 thin clients in a year is because of sustainability. We simply cant afford to keep 300+ fat clients up and running in the long term - our budget goes down every year not up! Thin clients are one answer for us. Virtualisation is another, if we can get our 9 servers virtualised down to three we can save over £1k a year just on electricity costs alone!

 

New technology is great

 

Butuz

[mrbios]

We've currently got 23 virtualised servers on 3 physical boxes, 50-75 thin clients spread over 2 terminal servers, 4.5TB total network storage and about 400-450 other regular client machines

 

Theres a nice display of technology here ranging from new to old haven't got much open source stuff in use here though come to think of it

[matt40k]

You'll need another £200 or so each for Windows Server and device CALs.

 

Where the hell do you go shopping for licensing... education should be ALOT cheaper!

[farmerste]

i think the sound of second hand kit might be a good idea, one word of warning though, make sure you vacuum clean the cpu fans before you put them in, and try to make sure all the workstations are the same, or at least have the same ACPI so that images will all work.

 

there are lots of good quality p4 machines around 2nd hand, it seems that lots of places, especially those run by profit making companies, have managed to trick organisations into believing that desktops are ' worn out' etc after 3 years which is utter nonsense. I believe desktops are good for 5 to 10 years, and if you upgrade them yourself initial costs of outlay will be much less next time upgrades are due.

The '3 years and bin it' philosophy has come about because of poorly advised organisations suffering at the hands of profit greedy companies. the only equipment that needs replacing after 3 years is inferior quality stuff anyway, such as laptops, umpc's, pda's etc ( 12 months for pda's/phones if you are lucky.)

The humble desktop instead of rightfully winning the place of 'supreme' computer has been classed with all the other cr@p, and this is wholly wrong.

 

so go ahead and buy second hand - full size ATX desktops, ( slim ones tend to run hotter ), and then you can simply order spares from anywhere to fit them, thus freeing you up from the nightmare of maintaining, warrantying, troubleshooting the utter rubish that has infested itself into our educational establishments, by poor advice, and 'gadget greedy' individuals who have no business interfering, and needlessly wasting tax payers money !

 

right, i'm off to fight the ' campaign for real computers ' ( bit like the real ale one, but members are generally more slim and geeky )

[featured_spectre]

2nd hand machines are a good way to go as been stated. We managed to get some from a company 2 years ago and havent looked back since. The PC's were 2 years old then, and they have been running like a dream here, but we dont have the problem of kids abusing them terribly anymore.

[dhicks]

You'll need another £200 or so each for Windows Server and device CALs.

 

Where the hell do you go shopping for licensing... education should be ALOT cheaper!

 

Sorry, TS CALS, even - so that's £100 (ish) for Windows Server and £20 (ish) per workstation for device and TS CALS. Technically for 6 workstations that's £220 (ish) - maybe better round up to £250. Note that NComputing's system has no actual use whatsoever for Terminal Services, you just need to buy the licenses. You could, of course, simply use Edubuntu and quit with all the messing around with licensing. Intriguingly, I was listening to a podcast from Ubuntu Live 2007 last night and NComputing was listed as one of the commercial sponsors - I hope to see a running system at BETT, see justhow good support for Ubuntu is.

 

--

David Hicks

[itman]

Try http://www.abcom.co.uk

 

We purchased 50 re-cond HP p4 530s 1gb 80hdd last summer, they came with XP Pro Liences, monitors, k/b & mouse. For about £180 each. + 1year warrenty.

 

They delivered and installed them free of charge.

Edited December 17, 2008 by itman

[dhicks]

and try to make sure all the workstations are the same, or at least have the same ACPI so that images will all work.

 

Assuming this chap's on a really low budget, image compatibility won't be any use - you only have the OEM licensed copy of Windows for each machine unless you pay (£40?) per machine for a volume license upgrade. Again, could simply use Edubuntu instead and solve that problem.

 

it seems that lots of places, especially those run by profit making companies, have managed to trick organisations into believing that desktops are ' worn out' etc after 3 years which is utter nonsense.

 

I have the vague idea that's it's something to do with tax - a company can write off capital expenditure such as the purchase of IT equipment against their tax returns for 3 years, i.e. they can spend the money as tax or purchase new IT equipment with it. Hey, their waste is our gain :-)

 

--

David Hicks

[Butuz]

Sorry, TS CALS, even - so that's £100 (ish) for Windows Server and £20 (ish) per workstation for device and TS CALS. Technically for 6 workstations that's £220 (ish) - maybe better round up to £250.

 

Where are you getting your licences from David? MS Academic prices through aur LEA are waaaay cheaper:

 

Windows 2003 Server Std : £48.71

Windows Terminal Services CAL: £8.99

[dgsmith]

Hey, their waste is our gain :-)

 

--

David Hicks

 

Quite what I was thinking too. I assume we're all here as we work in education, so we are all gaining from all this "nearly-new" stock being sold off a B grade and as 2nd hand prices (some good bargains about too)!

 

With regards to thin client - I'm not dismissing it at all, just saying that I don't see why there is a big hype about it. Sure, in some environments it can be life saving (whether that is budget restraining or what not), however if you don't have to take that route then why do so? I'm not prepared to take an interest in it if we aren't going to benefit in any way - that's just my opinion; i'm not dismissive of "all new technologies without first doing my homework on them".

 

The OP wanted to replace an IT suite which I assume is used heavily, thus they'll want as much power in there as they can afford and do without too much inconvenience - fat clients I would say are better here.

[dhicks]

Where are you getting your licences from David? MS Academic prices through aur LEA are waaaay cheaper

 

Ah - we're a private school, we don't have any purchasing agreement (or, on the up side, interference) from an LEA, and we have to pay VAT, too.

 

--

David Hicks

[dhicks]

Sure, in some environments it can be life saving (whether that is budget restraining or what not), however if you don't have to take that route then why do so?

 

You only have to install / configure server-based applications once, you don't have a bunch of seperate machines to deal with. Also, thin clients can come in dead handy for remote access - let your pupils connect to the same desktops they use at school, from home. Of course, ideally we'll all ditch this whole "desktop" thing in a couple of years and be using entirely web-based applications anyway.

 

--

David Hicks

[localzuk]

With regards to thin client - I'm not dismissing it at all, just saying that I don't see why there is a big hype about it. Sure, in some environments it can be life saving (whether that is budget restraining or what not), however if you don't have to take that route then why do so? I'm not prepared to take an interest in it if we aren't going to benefit in any way - that's just my opinion; i'm not dismissive of "all new technologies without first doing my homework on them".

 

The OP wanted to replace an IT suite which I assume is used heavily, thus they'll want as much power in there as they can afford and do without too much inconvenience - fat clients I would say are better here.

 

As dhicks has said, installing an app only has to be done once - on the server. The clients last 10 years, minimum. Updating a suite is as simple as replacing the server. You will be able to afford a larger number of clients with the same amount of money. You save a lot in terms of power (the thin clients don't get anywhere near as hot either, so you save on not needing aircon too). ie. altogether, it's far more sustainable than fat clients.

 

But all of that is thoroughly discussed by Becta and in various threads on here too...