apearce Posted November 10, 2008 Posted November 10, 2008 All, I thought I would let you know that the Microsoft stand at BETT this year will have a demo Microsoft Surface. I saw the very one at Microsoft about a month ago and it has some great feature to show off what it can do and how the technology works behind the sences. If you weren't too sure whether to go to BETT or not - now you know you have to. Microsoft Surface: In the UK at last - Alex Pearce's SharePoint Blog A. 1
dhicks Posted November 10, 2008 Posted November 10, 2008 I thought I would let you know that the Microsoft stand at BETT this year will have a demo Microsoft Surface. No need to travel all the way to BETT to see a demo - the latest James Bond movie features an MS Surface device being used to do something top-secret ish. Anyone else catch the demo on the RM stand last year showing Google Earth being projected onto a circular desktop and controlled by a Mimio pen? About £1000 of equipment - maybe not quite the same amount of snazzy features as MS Surface, but suitably impressive. -- David Hicks
SYNACK Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 If anyone has been watching the latest Knight Rider remake they may have also noticed lots of surface technology in use both in the KITT control room set and as a scifi expansion on the surface of the car itself.
Dos_Box Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 I can see those in table form being a hit in primary schools Mind you they would require a good clean on a daily basis!
Face-Man Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 Smart have got into the act as well and are hoping to demo their smart table at Bett SMART - SMART Table
bizzel Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 I've had the opportunity to play with a multitouch table (not MS Surface) that's a research project here at Durham and even see some of the code behind it. I can definitely see these sorts of devices taking off in schools once the cost becomes affordable. You can use them for all kinds of things, maybe an interactive map of the school that you can tilt, zoom, pan, etc. Very cool tech.
shutdownplease Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 pointlessware and when they become 'affordable' i can see schools being duped into buying them in much the same way they all thought that they must have IWB's in every classroom
stratisphere Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 pointlessware and when they become 'affordable' i can see schools being duped into buying them in much the same way they all thought that they must have IWB's in every classroom Nothing like a good-ole abacus and chalkboard huh?
shutdownplease Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Nothing like a good-ole abacus and chalkboard huh? you should see the dialup speed i get on my type writer back to topic - they could become usable / viable to schools one day but i drastically doubt their effectiveness. most of the collaborative nature of the surface can be 'replicated' through standard pc's and a network. iwb's have a distinct advantage over surface - the amount of pupils who can see what is going on is much more. connect surface to a projector - sure - but why not just have a smartboard? what is more important in tougher economic times and facing the upcoming demise of xp? i would go for money being spent on servers and upgrading pc's rather than handing teachers shiny new toys still - twas fun playing with it for a bit
mattmoo Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 The possibilities for collaberation in small groups is immense with these, not to mention bringing the groups together in meeting spaces via network surface devices. How you can compare them to IWB i dont know as they provide a completely different learning experience and IWB are generally educationcentric, the surface is the future household PC i am sure. Even gaming wise these could be a hit, give the unit a swivle base and you talking major functionality. Sorry shutdownplease but i think you majorly miss the possibilities that the surface, and similar products, create. Amazing technology! Matt 2
dhicks Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 the surface is the future household PC i am sure. Hmm - these things have been tried several times before (anyone else ever play horizontal-style space invaders?) but have failed to take off so far. I was quite impressed by the Vipro Interactive Table - basically a short-throw projector rear-projecting onto the underside of a hard-glass table (was a tad peeved that the sales chap, after telling me that said hard-glass was solid enough for me to jump up and down upon, didn't seem keen on me actually jumping up and down upon it), controlled by a eBeam pen. At £6,500, they're a bit over-expensive for everyday use (£7,500 for the "dual-touch" system that could take two finger-touch inputs at once), so it'll be a few years until these contraptions get around to the average classroom. -- David Hicks
russdev Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 I have to agree with Matt IWB are used in a different way to the tables. Key here for me is what was said to me by founder of Smart as we sat at the smart table with crowd of children on board next to us. To paraphrase she said we as adults where sat at the board wrong the children were bent over board. As they where talking, communicating and collaborating. IWB are great as interactive devices with students doing one-one interaction that needs to be shown to whole class etc. You don't need to project the table as that is not way to use it in any kind of effective manner. The point of the interactive table is not what happening on the table but what is happening around the table... Russ
contink Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 I have to admit I'm intrigued by some of the ideas behind it, if for no other reason than it's thinking in a different plane or dimension. If I'm honest, if someone showed me something like that I'd probably be thinking about good ole' Space Invader days with a little tear in my eye (many happy memories there ) but also about how I could persuade the other half to let me have one (albeit, not at £6k+)... It may be expensive white elephant at the moment but in years to come it may be something we're wondering why we didn't use it before... Overall though one truth still holds sway... If the teachers don't learn how to use it it'll never take off.
dhicks Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 The point of the interactive table is not what happening on the table but what is happening around the table... Can't we just ditch the "interactive" bit and keep the "table" part for that, though? Do we really need to spend thousands of pounds on being able to simulate bits of paper being passed from one side of the table to the other? Okay, I'm sure people will think up some more innovative ideas, and I'm sure the price of a interactive table ("IT"? Way too confusing) will eventually drop, I'd just like to avoid a situation where the price drops because schools have been chucking loads of money at the manufacturers again, as they have with IWBs. -- David Hicks
pooley Posted January 18, 2009 Posted January 18, 2009 Smart have got into the act as well and are hoping to demo their smart table at Bett SMART - SMART Table Me and the Head were impressed by this and have ordered/bought one for our Nursery/Foundation phase.
russdev Posted January 18, 2009 Posted January 18, 2009 Can't we just ditch the "interactive" bit and keep the "table" part for that, though? Do we really need to spend thousands of pounds on being able to simulate bits of paper being passed from one side of the table to the other? Okay, I'm sure people will think up some more innovative ideas, and I'm sure the price of a interactive table ("IT"? Way too confusing) will eventually drop, I'd just like to avoid a situation where the price drops because schools have been chucking loads of money at the manufacturers again, as they have with IWBs. -- David Hicks Maybe that’s the difference between us as adults and young people. We see a table with interaction they interaction with a table. Our students are digital natives they live in a connected world us as adults wanting just a table to them is just old world not moving on. Seriously get some of your students in front of these and say play with it and sure you will you see the worth. As for paying 6k maybe not and need to wait for price to come down but they will like it did with iwb. Problem with IWB is the technology was brought to old world technology so an electronic board with ability of an old whiteboard. Where with the interactive tables it seems to other way they have started with the interaction and then put it in a case which is a table. Second forget about software at the moment that will come one reason the ms board will take so long to take off due to lack of educational software designed for the board Smart have lead on this with their own software. Russ
shutdownplease Posted January 18, 2009 Posted January 18, 2009 The possibilities for collaberation in small groups is immense with these, not to mention bringing the groups together in meeting spaces via network surface devices. How you can compare them to IWB i dont know as they provide a completely different learning experience and IWB are generally educationcentric, the surface is the future household PC i am sure. Even gaming wise these could be a hit, give the unit a swivle base and you talking major functionality. Sorry shutdownplease but i think you majorly miss the possibilities that the surface, and similar products, create. Amazing technology! Matt oh i definitely see the possibilities of the surface outside of the school particularly in the home or business - my post though was focusing on its use within schools and based on the theory that prices will remain high for ms surface for a good few years I do not see that it is a viable product for a long while to come. when (or if) it reaches the price of a single high end pc (1000 to a 1500 quid) then i would heartily recommend it for purchase within a school.
SYNACK Posted January 18, 2009 Posted January 18, 2009 oh i definitely see the possibilities of the surface outside of the school particularly in the home or business - my post though was focusing on its use within schools and based on the theory that prices will remain high for ms surface for a good few years I do not see that it is a viable product for a long while to come. when (or if) it reaches the price of a single high end pc (1000 to a 1500 quid) then i would heartily recommend it for purchase within a school. Lets be remotely fair and say that they would probably be a good deal if they came down to the price of a high end pc and a 50 inch or greater touch screen. It is not like it can only be used by one person at a time either like a normal pc, it is designed to be used by many and so as a teaching tool the cost per simultanious user will work out better than trying to estimate its worth like a single pc.
dhicks Posted January 18, 2009 Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) Seriously get some of your students in front of these and say play with it and sure you will you see the worth. I don't think interactive tables, or interactive whiteboards (which, for us, are still expensive), are going to come down in price soon enough not to be overtaken by other technology. We're getting to the stage where PCs will soon be pretty much disposable - £99 for a laptop means we can afford to dish out a PC per child better than we can afford tables and/or whiteboards, and that price is only going to carry on dropping over the next few years. Bill Gates' vision of a "personal computer", one per person, is actually coming true (ironically, mainly due to Linux making for ultra-cheap laptops...). Second forget about software at the moment that will come The software is worth thinking about right from the start, otherwise we wind up with people creating resources that are locked in to one propitiatory system. Hardware companies should stick to making the hardware, you should distrust any packaged software. -- David Hicks Edited January 18, 2009 by dhicks Missing bracket.
russdev Posted January 18, 2009 Posted January 18, 2009 @David When I meant worth I meant educational worth I still think 6 grand is too much but they will come down I am sure of that. The software know you bring an interesting point the fact that ms have sat on demo models for so long means that partner companies have not had chance to create software for it so in Microsoft case is going to hinder the roll out. When I said about software main thing is that software companies will fill the void like they have done with IWB. Every IWB has some kind of 'notebook' software on it but lot of resources are from third party software houses (hence why ms sitting on demo is going to hinder them) As for them taking over other technology I never said that it all links into together. Again in my view (and this includes me) we look at at from old way point of view we get hung up on this piece of technology and this item where as students look at from the view of the "technology in front of me". Don't get me wrong they are not to replace the current technology but compliment the current technology. As for device for every student... Also I had interesting conversation with head of E-Learning foundation down at BETT about technology prices and ability for parents to pay for it. In her view the tipping point is 1 pound a week over two years so devices need to be about £100 which at moment we are just getting to not quite there yet but nearly (as you have to make it last two years so the really cheap devices are not quite right yet). But then to be very blunt why are we wasting money on providing every student with say internet enabled handheld device when 80% have them already have one at home. So maybe we should be looking to to provide the devices for the other 20% who don't have them at home (arr home access money). Then that means we can be spending money on those extra things like tables/iwb. This of course means we have to step away from the network deny button and allow student devices on the network something I think we all need to start doing in the next few years.... I have asked question to several people over last few weeks about allowing home devices on the network several said yes that is easy to do but yet we all seem to say "personnel devices on network over my dead body". So then question is why are we saying it? Russ
dhicks Posted January 18, 2009 Posted January 18, 2009 Every IWB has some kind of 'notebook' software on it but lot of resources are from third party software houses And I reckon there's also a substantial number of teacher-created resources now stuck in propitiatory IWB formats. A number of departments, or whole schools, aren't going to have any choice of hardware supplier if they decide they want an interactive table, they'll simply have to wait and see what a particular vendor produces if they want to keep their existing resources. As for them taking over other technology I never said that No, I think interactive tables stand a good chance of being over taken by other technologies, as in other things will be developed faster and more adaptably. Interactive tables are big-ticket items, and although I accept that the price will come down eventually, you still can't sit a whole class of 30 around one - you'd need half a dozen interactive tables (hmm, 5? Say £6,000 per table, seats 6 - I guess that's £1,000 per seat, which isn't that bad really, good value even) for that, which is getting pricey. Okay, so I guess that'd be a price similar to an ICT suite, but I think a room of interactive tables will have less general use than PCs. You could have an interactive table in a classroom that you could use as part of a carousel of activities, but I reckon you could do the same better with a couple of laptops. For the cost of a single table you could buy a classes worth of laptops. Heck, you could probably buy more than one per pupil - no need to have a on-screen representation of multiple electronic documents being passed around a desktop, you could actually physically do it. Then that means we can be spending money on those extra things like tables/iwb. I think there's better things we could spend the money on - teachers, staff, etc. we all seem to say "personnel devices on network over my dead body". I don't - anyone can wander in and use our network, there's no way for us to stop them. Web sites are transparently filtered, of course, and servers and file areas are password protected, but nothing more than that. -- David Hicks
russdev Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 I don't - anyone can wander in and use our network, there's no way for us to stop them. Web sites are transparently filtered, of course, and servers and file areas are password protected, but nothing more than that. ..of course comment wasn't aimed at you per say but topic in general. But then you work for progressive school and head Seriously you unique in that sense of allowing pupils to bring their own devices on the network. Lot of networks are walled areas... Russ
NewOrder Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Have a look at this folks [ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrr7AZ9nCY&feature=related]YouTube - Microsoft Surface Parody[/ame] A good thread. I just wish head teachers would read the debate. Understand the issues before making decisons over whether to buy one or not. For Surface to be successful in education there needs to be applications for it. For people to develop applications they need a market. Its a chicken and egg scenario. You could always rent it out for PTA evenings so they can run some poker nights
dhicks Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Lot of networks are walled areas... I bet most of them aren't actually nearly as walled as they think. I was particularly struck by the article in this month's PC Pro on "spy" technology, which pointed out that a key logger device (plug it in between the keyboard and PC, done) costs around £30. I don't really see how we can realisticly defend against that kind of thing, short of using some kind of ultra-paranoid two-factor login system for the PCs, or finger prints, or doing daily checks on the backs of every PC, or making sure every keyboard connection is ultra-securely locked away inside a case or similar. Any/all of these steps would take time/money and cause inconvenience for our users, and schools already have enough difficulty, what with their users swapping around each hour. It's enough to make you want to just give every pupil a laptop - with no keyboard port to plug anything in to, you can't go too far wrong. Problem is, some management types would tend to see login data more as absolute proof rather than the vague guidelines they actually are. If a child gets another's login details they could log on as that other child to do all their hacking/bullying/porn surfing and that other child gets all the blame. Piling more and more security on to a system costs money, causes fiddly delays in actually using the computers and makes for a more "brittle" system - a system which you might have to put extra initial effort in to break, but when you do so the results, and damage you can cause, are greater. Better to go on the assumption that your system is full of holes anyway and act accordingly. -- David Hicks
SYNACK Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) I was particularly struck by the article in this month's PC Pro on "spy" technology, which pointed out that a key logger device (plug it in between the keyboard and PC, done) costs around £30. I don't really see how we can realisticly defend against that kind of thing, Its ashame these - http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Secure_20USB_20keyboard - don't seem to exist yet as they could render keyloggers useless, just a custom USB keyboard with a special driver that decrypts they keystrokes once they make it to the OS. Edited January 19, 2009 by SYNACK
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