VMWare Virtual Desktop Infrastructure

[kooperthedog]

Hi Folks,

 

We're about to start a pilot to test VMWare's virtual desktop infrastructure with a view to deploying it across 50 primary schools and 8 high schools.

 

I'm interested to find out if anyone else has been down this route for the desktop environment, and if they have experienced issues with the myriad of end user devices used in a school (particularly Smartboard's). From what I've heard, I'm not overly convinced about how well it can handle streaming audio and video or high end graphics apps etc.

 

I'm currently of the opinion that VDI should be able to cope with areas like English, History, Admin, Business Education etc. What I'm not convinced is how it will hold up with the likes of Music and D&T.

 

Any advice or help would be welcome.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Kenny

[techie08]

Im also looking at this in the very near future possibly for admin stations. Let me know how you get on!!

[ICTNUT]

I would be intrested in this also as I have just taken delivery of a new blade c3000 chasis with blades ( 2x quad xeon, 2 x 73gb sas, 10Gb ram ) a full VM infrastructure setup and 10Tb SAN to sit it all on.

 

I plan to VM my server setup over the october half term but would see this as a way forward for desktops.

 

How does this look from the client side, how are the connections handled, is there a hardware requirement or can you simply "re-use" exisiting kit?

[Axel]

Axel are in the process of releasing support for WMware's VDI virtual desktop, let us know if you would like to be a tester, (or if you already have Axel hardware contact us for free f/w upgrade with VDI).

[ICTNUT]

I would be intrested in testing the VDI stuff you have inorder to get a proof of concept.

[somabc]

We are using it here, only in testing. It looks pretty good you just have clients connect to https://yourserver.yourdomain/ where they can use a plugin for IE to interact with the VM. It would integrate well with your intranet eg click here for maths/music/english setups.

 

Unfortunately there does not appear to be a 64bit VDM plugin for IE?

Edited September 16, 2008 by somabc

[Axel]

Kenny,

 

Out of curiousity, what are you hoping to gain through VDI that can't be provided through 'normal' Windows Terminal Services or Citrix....

[kooperthedog]

Hi Folks,

 

Thanks for getting back to me and apologies for the delay! I'll be writing a blog and daily project diary through this one and can make it available to interested parties. We are currently looking at running a VMWare VDI trial towards the end of the year, and have plans to test server 2008 Hyper V at the same time.

 

We currently support our local LEA, 50 primary schools, 8 secondary schools and a number of other specialised units which comes to a total of about 6000 machines. We currently have a staff compliment of 10 engineers, and as you can imagine trying to support a traditional client/server network of 6000 machines (along with all the usual peripherals and software) with only 10 bods is hard going.

 

We have numerous factors that are fueling our interest in VMWare/Hyper-V, and the following displays a few examples:

 

1) Reduce support overhead to sustainable levels

2) Reduce power consumption

3) Enable us to be more flexible

4) Potentially deliver virtual desktops to pupils outwith normal school hours

5) Greatly enhance reliability and make the network more robust

6) Introduce application streaming (Thinapp/Softgrid)

7) React quicker to changes in our customers operating environment

8) Increase the lifespan of our existing PC estate

9) Deliver a greatly enhanced disaster recovery and backup scenario.

 

To be honest I could go on and on detailing the reasoning behind all of this, but the examples above should give you a feel for what we are trying to achieve.

 

We have looked at Citrix, and we are aware of the Xen series of apps they provide. We haven't ruled them out, but it's VMWare and Hyper-V that we are currently concentrating on.

 

The ability to migrate live virtual desktops/servers from one physical host to another is something that interests us. The ability to backup and move virtual desktops/servers as flat files is also interesting, particularly from a DR point of view.

 

I'll keep you posted and let you know how we get on - I believe we are looking at November/December for our pilot.

 

Cheers,

 

K.

[tmcd35]

'll be writing a blog and daily project diary through this one and can make it available to interested parties.

 

I'll keep you posted and let you know how we get on - I believe we are looking at November/December for our pilot.

 

VDI is one tech that as yet to fire my imagination. I'd be very interested in reading a blog/project diary. Perhaps seeing how it's being implemented would get the ol' grey matter going!

[Dave_O]

We have recently implemented VMWare's VDI using 96 Wyse v10L thin clients.

 

This is supported by:-

 

3 x ESX servers - IBM x3650s each 2 x 3GHz quad core, 24Gb memory, 2 x 4Gbit HBAs, 2 x dual port Gbit Nics, 2 x 72Gb HDs (raid 1)

 

2 x IBM SAN 16Bs fibre switches

 

1 x Dual controller DS3400

 

1 x EXP3000 expansion unit

 

24 x 300Gb 15K SAS drives (4 hot spares rest carved into 5 raid LUNs)

 

One virtual broker per classroom room (20 machines), Single template image (XP SP3 + office 2003 - rest of apps (all curriculum stuff) are either on a mapped drive or virtualised using VMWare's ThinApp) 515Mb memory 8Gb HD

 

Brokers are hosted on VI enterprise (seperate implementation to above but similar only had 3 x EXP3000s fully populated 6 LUNs all Raid 10)

 

Access to staff from home at all times using VDM client & Cisco VPN concentrator.

 

Issues/observations to date:-

 

1. Air con failure over a weekend, all servers shut down. Testament to IBM kit self survival. Restarted and back in action within 1 hour

 

2. Machine pool size needs to be roughly 2 machines bigger than physical count as some sessions don't always disconnect straight away, even though they are set to.

 

3. Zoning the fibre switches can be a pain but have done this several times now but just watch out for that.

 

4. Setup of FTP server, DHCP settings for WNOS and the Wyse V10L can be a bit of a pig but worth it.

 

5. Spend some time learning the WNOS ini file settings, makes all the difference to the user experience AUP and all that. (Make sure it's locked down) oh and make a note of the mac address of each unit. Trust me you'll need it.

 

6. If you are using virtual brokers that service around 20 clients then allocate 2Gb memory, backup the settings (see broker command line document) using a scheduled event, set a scheduled event for about 4 in the morning to reboot the broker. This solves all kinds of issues really worth doing.

 

7. Make sure automatic updates (especially the big ones like SP3 .Net SP2) occur well into the night as these affect performance quite a lot.

 

8. There are approximately 40 VMs of the above spec on each ESX server, initially set vMotion and DRS to aggressive to spread the load on the ESXs is a good start. Once stable then move back.

 

9. With this number of machines and this spec of VM, performance is as good as a 1Gb Dell 745.

 

10. If you want to use a USB memory stick or any USB device then you'll have to buy a software addin to the Wyse V10L (annoying when you just spent a shed load of money buying them, TCX virtualiser). Be warned it doesn't support all types of USB memory stick as we are slowly finding out.

 

11. Don't use Photoshop CS3, Moviemaker, or Windows media player or multimedia apps cos they don't work well. (I think VMware have just announced a collaboration with Wyse to include the multimedia plugins in the next version of VDI). I'd wait if you want this capability.

 

12. A little off beam but ThinApp.... brilliant. From... staff room at break...Q: Can you just install this on all machines (735) before this afternoon...please. A: Maybe this afternoon next year! to A: Yes certainly are you sure you would'nt like it for your next lesson. (No I'm not a VMWare rep in disguise)

 

13. Get VMWare VDI starter kit if you don't have VI already and buy the VDM 10 packs to make up the numbers. If, like us, you have VI then theres no need to use the VI foundation server in the starter kit

 

14. This one really annoyed me. We had to purchase the Microsoft VECD licenses for each of the thin clients. The downside of this is that the licenses are non-persistant but there's no alternative. Microsoft need to revisit this one soon.

 

The true test is how the kids get on with them. Their verdict... "Are they different to the others? Just look a bit smaller and theirs no CD drive for me to keep pressing in and out and in and out and in......". If they don't notice any difference in speed they it must be OK.

 

We were originally only going to have 2 ESXs but thought 60 VMs might be a bit too much. TCO with 19" Dell TFT and all infrastructure costs (ESX, SAN etc) around £530 per unit. Not cheap when compared to a physical machine but manageability, scalability, no memory upgrades needed, life expectancy, no bits that can be pulled off. It all seemed to make sense. Ask me again after half term and I might be feeling different.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Dave_O

[robknowles]

Hello,

 

So then, is it still ok after the half-term. I'm currently looking at doing the exactly the same for about 90-100 thin clients, plus remote access for staff from home.

 

Thanks,

 

Rob

[Axel]

Ozan,

 

We can email you the firmware with VDI support for your Axel terminals if this is still an on-going project....

 

[email protected]

[EduTech]

We're looking into this ourselves, we've been talking to guys from "The Cutter Project", after the demo they gave us i'm quite impressed and so was my manager.

 

just need to convince the Senior Manglement Team,

 

I've sent you a PM Axel

 

James.

[Dave_O]

Hello,

 

So then, is it still ok after the half-term. I'm currently looking at doing the exactly the same for about 90-100 thin clients, plus remote access for staff from home.

 

Thanks,

 

Rob

 

 

Have negotiated with VMWare for upgrade to Premium version (includes linked clones). Solution working well, still need to over provision by about 10%. Login time for physical PCs 3-5 seconds, thin clients take 12-15 seconds under heavy load so still acceptable. Linked clones has reduced SAN requirements considerably from 1.5Tb to 200Gb. Cost per VM for premium edition is now too high. If it had been this price when I started TCO would have been too high to continue. Make sure you cost up both the hardware and software. Access from home for staff via the VPN and VMWare view client has been a real success.

[st-johns]

Have negotiated with VMWare for upgrade to Premium version (includes linked clones). Solution working well, still need to over provision by about 10%. Login time for physical PCs 3-5 seconds, thin clients take 12-15 seconds under heavy load so still acceptable. Linked clones has reduced SAN requirements considerably from 1.5Tb to 200Gb. Cost per VM for premium edition is now too high. If it had been this price when I started TCO would have been too high to continue. Make sure you cost up both the hardware and software. Access from home for staff via the VPN and VMWare view client has been a real success.

 

Dave

 

We are interested in using VMView for a new ICT suite to reduce our TCO and wondered:

 

a) If you did it yourself or used a supplier? If you used a supplier who were they and would you recommend them?

 

b) Depending on where you are in the country (and if it is appropriate) visit you to see it in action etc?

 

Andy

St John's School, Epping, Essex

[Dave_O]

Dave

 

We are interested in using VMView for a new ICT suite to reduce our TCO and wondered:

 

a) If you did it yourself or used a supplier? If you used a supplier who were they and would you recommend them?

 

b) Depending on where you are in the country (and if it is appropriate) visit you to see it in action etc?

 

Andy

St John's School, Epping, Essex

 

 

Andy

 

a) Did it myself, not difficult if you have some experience of virtualisation. Hardware from IBM & Wyse. If you're just doing one room with say 25 machines, I would host it on one ESX with local storage as this reduced complexity and cost (considerably). OK you don't get the resilience but you do get to see if it works and you can always scale out if and when. You could do a room of 25 with:-

 

ESX

1 x IBM x3650 dual processor 3GHz, 24Gb memory, redundant power, extra dual nic (2 on board already), 2 x 72Gb 15K SAS HD (raid 1) - for ESX 4 x 300Gb 15K SAS (raid 10) - for VMs. Should cost about £3800

VMWare software

1 x View starter pack (10VMs) enterprise

2 x 10 pack enterprise

Thin Clients

25 x Wyse V10L - £380 each

 

b) Come whenever you like. We have been fully virtualised server side for 2 years and Thin clients for just under 1 year. Unfortunately it may be a trek for you as we are in South Yorkshire. Postcode is S60 5EJ, Google and give us a call.

 

Dave Orridge

[Axel]

Andy,

 

We can loan you a handful of thin-clients if you want to run the evaluation yourself. The Axel M80f is faster, smaller, and costs less than half the device mentioned above - and we can assist you with the set up. There are several recent comments from schools using our products in the post below.....

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/thin-client-virtual-machines/22082-axel-ax3000-m70-lesson-monitor.html

 

Mattthew Stones

http://www.Axel.com 0845 225 2822

[st-johns]

Andy

 

a) Did it myself, not difficult if you have some experience of virtualisation. Hardware from IBM & Wyse. If you're just doing one room with say 25 machines, I would host it on one ESX with local storage as this reduced complexity and cost (considerably). OK you don't get the resilience but you do get to see if it works and you can always scale out if and when. You could do a room of 25 with:-

 

ESX

1 x IBM x3650 dual processor 3GHz, 24Gb memory, redundant power, extra dual nic (2 on board already), 2 x 72Gb 15K SAS HD (raid 1) - for ESX 4 x 300Gb 15K SAS (raid 10) - for VMs. Should cost about £3800

VMWare software

1 x View starter pack (10VMs) enterprise

2 x 10 pack enterprise

Thin Clients

25 x Wyse V10L - £380 each

 

b) Come whenever you like. We have been fully virtualised server side for 2 years and Thin clients for just under 1 year. Unfortunately it may be a trek for you as we are in South Yorkshire. Postcode is S60 5EJ, Google and give us a call.

 

Dave Orridge

 

Thanks Dave

 

As you say South Yorkshire is a bit of a trek . . .

 

The problem we have is time (the school won't pay for anyone to be full time which is when we could do it ourselves). The servers are already virtualised with ESx server which is why we are considering VM View for VDI. We have already spoken to one supplier and are talking to another today (who has reference sites running Quest vWorkspace on ESx rather than VM View). I'd certainly like to call you and will try my luck later this week to see if you are free for a 10min discussion or find out a convenient time as we would like to run some applications you had problems with e.g. Adobe SC4, Moviemaker and WMP 11 (not AutoCAD etc . . .) and wonder whether you have made any progress with graphics acceleration?

 

Thanks

 

Andy

[Dave_O]

Andy,

 

We can loan you a handful of thin-clients if you want to run the evaluation yourself. The Axel M80f is faster, smaller, and costs less than half the device mentioned above - and we can assist you with the set up. There are several recent comments from schools using our products in the post below.....

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/thin-client-virtual-machines/22082-axel-ax3000-m70-lesson-monitor.html

 

Mattthew Stones

http://www.Axel.com 0845 225 2822

 

I didn't realise that sponsorship of a thread meant that vendors actually contribute. Personally I find this both invasive and annoying.

[mtech]

Andy...Rob....youre all on here!!

 

M of M-Tech!

[dickiedickie2]

Hi Dave, we are completley new to the whole idea of virtualization and thin clients and read your post with great interest. Is the invitation open to other schools to come and visit you too?

[Sandman]

The ability to migrate live virtual desktops/servers from one physical host to another is something that interests us. The ability to backup and move virtual desktops/servers as flat files is also interesting, particularly from a DR point of view.

 

I'd suggest you check out esXpress for a backup solution as it is easily deployable and uses the virtual infrastructure to back itself up.

 

There's also a good entry level functionallity for backing up virtual machines with vSphere 4

[Dave_O]

Hi Dave, we are completley new to the whole idea of virtualization and thin clients and read your post with great interest. Is the invitation open to other schools to come and visit you too?

Sorry not been back here for a while.

 

With reference to the invitation, it's open to anyone as long as you give me some notice. We have an open door policy and are happy to share knowledge and ideas with anyone. The notion of "knowledge is power" and lets make people pay for it ,is one which does not sit well within my own philosphical framework. So expect to have any information or knowledge you have sucked out (as we expect the same in reverse) if you come.

 

As a child of the 50's all this new fangled GUI stuff is a bit too much, thank god for the move back to command line in windows 2008 . Powershell 2 is the new black. Personally I use Solaris 2 on an old unix box. Never gone wrong, never got a virus (never been on t'internet). I'm a man of simple taste. Rave on!

 

Dave O

[Dave_O]

Update on VMWare View implementation

 

After just under two years I have come to the conclusion that VMWare View is not a cost effective solution for the majority of schools. If you look at the present pricing on GreyMatter and lookup the price of View Premium you will see it costs in excess of £11,000 for 100 VMs thats without the SNS which work out at around £2000 pa. Along with the requirement to buy VECD licenses at approximately £2 per VM per month ie £2400 pa makes it a poor investment. If we had paid anything like this at the onset (we did not by the way) we calculated that we would have to keep the present setup for 8 year before it came anything like as cost effective as a PC. I have yet to find any IT solution that has lasted that long. As to the performance....

 

Performance is OK. We don't get a great number of complaints, just one or two USB issues. Will we be expanding? No. PCoIP? not all its cracked up to be. All in all a bit disappointing. The hardware was still a good investment it is located in a different block to our server virtualisation solution and gives some level of failover/resilience in case of DR. The journey has been useful and my knowledge of the technology and what it delivers valuable. Has the school gained from this? Well at least when BSF comes along and the MSP says they want to use Thin Clients throughout the school. The answer will definitely be NO!! What it has taught me is that IT management needs overseeing, controlling and aligning with the needs of the school. There's nothing worse than a school lead by a misguided, ill informed IT manager/curriculum leader and I've certainly experienced several of those in my time.

 

As to other thin solutions we use.

 

We have used Citrix before but don't like it for cost and complexity reasons.

 

What I do like is Ericom on top of Terminal services (Windows 2008). This is an excellent solution to deliver remote apps. We have 150 terminal services licenses (on a virtual terminal server instance) and the free Ericom offering. This combination is used to deliver remote apps to staff at home. It is simple to set up and very popular with staff. Published apps include Smartboard's Notebook and Open office and one or two others (which I shall not mention). Why bother doing this? Staff like the ability to open and work on docs directly in school from home. I would certainly recommend this to anyone wanting to extend access to apps outside the boundaries of school, just be careful though which apps you publish as your licensing may require a revisit.

 

I hope this has helped you come to some conclusions of your own. As a parting shot I would just like to offer a warning, please be deeply suspicious of anyone who says Thin client technology is as good as a PC (or laptop for that matter - but that's another story), it's not. It should never be a whole establishment solution, certainly not as the technology stand now. As a solution to a problem with one or two rooms... yes maybe.

 

Dave O

[nut-ed]

Dave,

 

....can you elaborate why you were underwhelmed by PCoIP. That is often billed as the solution to the one technical area that differentiates where thin clients v. PCs can be deployed, ie the ability to run multi-media, and so the main reason to consider VDI over terminal services or Citrix

 

Did it just not work ? Did streaming MM put too much load on the servers/network to get PC like performance...?

 

Thanks