Educational cutbacks following latest govt announcement

[C3PO]

Given the latest announcements by government and now mounting pressures faced within education, it is really clear that there are some major challenges facing us all and an increased drive to use techology to find efficiences across our schools.

 

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-warn-of-staff-cuts-as-reeves-snubs-sector/

 

There is a mention of MIS systems within this article and we all know that efficiences are not faced immediately as it takes time to phase out other systems etc etc.

 

Question is how long before implementing a cloud MIS solution do you see reall savings - or is it a big bang approach and just transition and shut off all other applications.

[ThomL]

The school/trust I work for are in the middle of a whole trust migration away from on site MIS to cloud MIS. As part of the project we are seeing schools cancel anywhere from 5 to 10 third party subscriptions that were being used to plug holes in the on site MIS - the new cloud MIS should provide the missing functionality natively.

We have a staged approach to the roll out of cloud MIS and its features, with subsequent decommission of the third party subscriptions/services as part of the plan. I am told there will be a cost saving realised within year 1, with this saving growing larger for years 2 & 3.

 

We will have gone from the start of the tender process to migrated to the new Cloud MIS with it in daily use by teachers in just over 3 months, with full migration away from third parties within the next 4(ish) months. I think a lot of the savings made in year 1 depend upon third party contract completion dates, where as you get a fuller picture during years 2 & 3 as all schools will be migrated to the single trust level cloud MIS contract.

 

 

[C3PO]

That's really interesting as I wonder how many schools will have to make other major cutbacks in other areas - especially in Year 1 while schools are transitioning across.

 

On top of this I know some schools who are also facing major challenges with Windows 10 becoming End of Life as well - and having devices that are non- compatible - so another financial challenge on top of everything else.

 

It will be really interesting in where this goes

[ITGuyNW]

We've been told to make hundreds of thousands worth of savings, while trying to meet Windows 11 requirements, cyber security essentials/plus and DFE standards. I've also been told that any budget now is for maintenance only, not for new purchases. 

 

Admittedly, I've not looked much into cloud MIS costs, however from looking into other areas, the initial cost of buying on prem hardware is matched by high subscription costs in the long run when choosing a cloud service, so there's not really a saving to be had. We are a single school though, so maybe those in a MAT can see those savings.

[Rob_D]

3 minutes ago, ITGuyNW said:

the initial cost of buying on prem hardware is matched by high subscription costs in the long run when choosing a cloud service, so there's not really a saving to be had.

I think it's less about moving from on-prem to cloud, but moving away from one specific on-prem MIS, and the savings which come from not having to have half a dozen paid addons if you move to something more modern that has things like a parent comms app, or payment system included in the base MIS.

 

It's going to be tough here, we're already running a deficit and expecting student numbers to go down again next year. Combined with all this, it's looking like some very lean years ahead.

[PotNoodleTech]

Maybe time to thnk outside the box - moving lock stock and two smoking barrels to chrome o/s has nevver looked so appealing (or so..possible..)

[speakercon]

Just now, PotNoodleTech said:

Maybe time to thnk outside the box - moving lock stock and two smoking barrels to chrome o/s has nevver looked so appealing (or so..possible..)

This, but most establishments won't even consider such a terrifying change is imaginable.

[Rob_D]

5 minutes ago, PotNoodleTech said:

Maybe time to thnk outside the box - moving lock stock and two smoking barrels to chrome o/s has nevver looked so appealing (or so..possible..)

Would be interesting, but coming from a M365 school, it sounds like a lot of work and staff training, which all costs.

[TheHyperTechie]

26 minutes ago, PotNoodleTech said:

Maybe time to thnk outside the box - moving lock stock and two smoking barrels to chrome o/s has nevver looked so appealing (or so..possible..)

haha, I was about to type this. 

 

Time for schools to start looking at Google Workspace for Education Fundamentals (Free) Chromebooks (Considerably cheaper than Windows devices) and ChromeOS Flex (£30 one off license fee).

 

But in all seriousness, it is scary - and with the constant pressure of meeting certain standards it's definitely a struggle.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2025 by HyperTech

[theeggmaster]

11 minutes ago, PotNoodleTech said:

Maybe time to thnk outside the box - moving lock stock and two smoking barrels to chrome o/s has nevver looked so appealing (or so..possible..)

I did this for the vast majority of devices about 10 years ago. I had to keep Windows machines for some legacy software (SIMS FMS) and some CAD stuff, but I added web-based frontends for SIMS and we did a whole school migration to Google Apps. We had embedded this in the school and then COVID hit, which meant all of our staff and students were already in the cloud. We just handed out Chromebooks to students who didn't have devices from home. In horrible circumstances, it turned out to be the best decision to continue education.

[DrCheese]

Right, but switching to Google workspace isn't as simple as going "It's cheaper" - Needs a lot of upfront capital & re-training costs. As well as staff time migrating. All of which are in low supply.

 

Doing the cloud MIS thing here and do expect to save a fair chunk of cash on third party bits of software within the first year or so. The thing we all have to watch out for however is those cloud MIS companies then deciding to massively ramp up prices once they've got us all as a captive market. The last thing we really want is another Capita/SIMS situation.

[mikes]

Honestly when it comes to actual work, we could ditch Windows entirely for the majority of staff - but unfortunately we still need it for IT, DT and Music software - meaning we'd have to keep a domain running anyway (and pay all the same costs and  license fees etc that would entail) - and also like most here, I think even if we didn't have a need for Windows at all, most of the staff would refuse to change over anyway because Microsoft is all they know and they refuse to learn new systems (I thought schools were all about learning new things but hey ho).

But in an emergency we could say to DT/IT/Music - you'll have to teach in a different way - and ditch the domain entirely.  For us though we get Windows/o365 licenses through the Welsh Govt at least so a domain isn't a huge overhead here.

 

And I agree with DrCheese - everyone moving to the cloud is still at the mercy of these software providers, how is it really any difference?  We have moved to o365 instead of local - but if MS decide UK education really isn't that important to them, and we have to pay business rates from now on, what would we do then?

 

Same with moving from SIMS to a cloud MIS which we are doing this week - our LEA had already planned (for their definition of "planned" anyway) this because their contract ran out today and the renewal costs were huge. But when SIMS dies and we are stuck with an MIS duopoly what is to stop the prices from going up and up again?  (lets hope that edugeekers MIS takes off!)

We were paying thousands and thousands for SIMS - so MIS would be a good way to cut costs - if only our Govt were competent enough to hire a few programmers to put together an SQL db and a frontend eh? it would save tens of millions

Edited April 1, 2025 by mikes

[ThomL]

1 minute ago, DrCheese said:

Right, but switching to Google workspace isn't as simple as going "It's cheaper" - Needs a lot of upfront capital & re-training costs. As well as staff time migrating. All of which are in low supply.

 

Doing the cloud MIS thing here and do expect to save a fair chunk of cash on third party bits of software within the first year or so. The thing we all have to watch out for however is those cloud MIS companies then deciding to massively ramp up prices once they've got us all as a captive market. The last thing we really want is another Capita/SIMS situation.

 

I'm hopeful with data already in a cloud driven MIS data mobility will be much easier between providers and dare I say hopeful that the companies remember this fact and we don't end up in another captive market. Especially with data integrators like Wonde that appear to integrate with most cloud MIS providers; fire a ticket to Wonde after connecting to new cloud MIS and requests a write-back of data to new MIS, job done! ... okay it will never be this easy, but it would be cool and help keep providers on their toes.

[theeggmaster]

22 minutes ago, DrCheese said:

Right, but switching to Google workspace isn't as simple as going "It's cheaper" - Needs a lot of upfront capital & re-training costs. As well as staff time migrating. All of which are in low supply.

 

Doing the cloud MIS thing here and do expect to save a fair chunk of cash on third party bits of software within the first year or so. The thing we all have to watch out for however is those cloud MIS companies then deciding to massively ramp up prices once they've got us all as a captive market. The last thing we really want is another Capita/SIMS situation.

Correct. This wasn't an overnight thing. It took about 2 years in total, including careful budget management, planning, migration, working with the LA and Capita and stakeholder engagement.

[mthomas08]

Ah yes.. the whole 'lets make savings'.

 

Okay, lets get rid of XYZ...   "no no we need that".

Okay, how about we get rid of ABC... "no no we need all that too"

Okay, I'll tender and review HIJKLMNO because I have such a great team and they can manage without me holding their hands for a bit "GREAT IDEA!"

Okay, all done, we saved tons of money and have some better services. "FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!! But we need to shrink your dept and cut your budget and add to your work load".

 

On a serious note, unless you've been chucking money out the window for kicks.. not sure how much schools will save.

 

We generally cut a ton of the waste when I joined this place years ago. A long list of signed up systems that either didn't work or barely used. A terrible device scheme costing us tens of thousands a year. An IT system that didn't work well enough. MFDs failing and don't get me started on the print management software, a telephone systems put together with glue and tape, cashless catering biometrics needing daily reboots, a slow network (100MB) and capped out broadband connnection on 50MB. Only naming a few....

 

We're already going to hurt financially due to numbers dropping in September. Only thing saving us is the surplus due to how well the budget is planned.

[theeggmaster]

43 minutes ago, DrCheese said:

Right, but switching to Google workspace isn't as simple as going "It's cheaper" - Needs a lot of upfront capital & re-training costs. As well as staff time migrating. All of which are in low supply.

 

Doing the cloud MIS thing here and do expect to save a fair chunk of cash on third party bits of software within the first year or so. The thing we all have to watch out for however is those cloud MIS companies then deciding to massively ramp up prices once they've got us all as a captive market. The last thing we really want is another Capita/SIMS situation.

Additionally, we didn't do a straight cutover. We migrated devices as they became beyond economical repair (i.e. over 2 years out of warranty, and as they were 5 year warranties, that meant devices older than 7 years).

[theeggmaster]

17 minutes ago, mthomas08 said:

Ah yes.. the whole 'lets make savings'.

 

Okay, lets get rid of XYZ...   "no no we need that".

Okay, how about we get rid of ABC... "no no we need all that too"

Okay, I'll tender and review HIJKLMNO because I have such a great team and they can manage without me holding their hands for a bit "GREAT IDEA!"

Okay, all done, we saved tons of money and have some better services. "FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!! But we need to shrink your dept and cut your budget and add to your work load".

 

On a serious note, unless you've been chucking money out the window for kicks.. not sure how much schools will save.

 

We generally cut a ton of the waste when I joined this place years ago. A long list of signed up systems that either didn't work or barely used. A terrible device scheme costing us tens of thousands a year. An IT system that didn't work well enough. MFDs failing and don't get me started on the print management software, a telephone systems put together with glue and tape, cashless catering biometrics needing daily reboots, a slow network (100MB) and capped out broadband connnection on 50MB. Only naming a few....

 

We're already going to hurt financially due to numbers dropping in September. Only thing saving us is the surplus due to how well the budget is planned.

I was asked to do a number of audits of other schools and you would be surprised at how many schools are sacrificing money that could be spent on education on unnecessary consulting, MSP support and unused/underused management/backup software. VMWare instead of Hyper-V, for example.

[mthomas08]

4 minutes ago, theeggmaster said:

I was asked to do a number of audits of other schools and you would be surprised at how many schools are sacrificing money that could be spent on education on unnecessary consulting, MSP support and unused/underused management/backup software. VMWare instead of Hyper-V, for example.

I completely believe it and don't doubt you for a second.

 

I'd say we still have a tiny amount of waste, take printing for instance.. we still spend a fortune printing a ton every year.

 

Wouldn't surprise me if schools are going down the route of chucking money at things not necessary....  schools that clearly have money to waste.

[paulkerton]

The problem with making savings, is that you won't be able to take the huge costs off the table that are there outside of staffing, so it ends up easier removing staffing than it is setting expectations on resources.

You might have enough devices on your site to run a 1:1 scheme, but someone won't like the idea of doing that, so you end up with more devices than people to cover all the major departments.

You can point out that with that many devices, you never have to print a thing again, but schools would rather throw £100 a day at printing than contemplate the idea that the vast majority of worksheets could be handed out digitally on the devices you've already got and are expected to have, or turned into digital resources, and reduce the massive cost of print and MFD lease, for example.

Just won't happen, there is a cultural block in the sector in many ways, and a huge amount of the time it's about an individual's feelings, rather than anything factual. That's why tons of leadership teams are running around with Macbook Pros under their arm, but spend 95% of their IT based work day in a browser.

[DrCheese]

@paulkerton You hit the nail on head here I think. IT comes up with X scheme. X Scheme is approved by the powers above & given backing.

 

Y Person/school doesn't like it. Y Person/school or kicks off/throws toys out of pram - Essentially makes enough noise. insist that they can't work any other way & it's impossible despite everyone else doing so.

 

X scheme gets changed to placate or watered down, resulting in.. no savings.

 

 

[theeggmaster]

8 minutes ago, paulkerton said:

The problem with making savings, is that you won't be able to take the huge costs off the table that are there outside of staffing, so it ends up easier removing staffing than it is setting expectations on resources.

You might have enough devices on your site to run a 1:1 scheme, but someone won't like the idea of doing that, so you end up with more devices than people to cover all the major departments.

You can point out that with that many devices, you never have to print a thing again, but schools would rather throw £100 a day at printing than contemplate the idea that the vast majority of worksheets could be handed out digitally on the devices you've already got and are expected to have, or turned into digital resources, and reduce the massive cost of print and MFD lease, for example.

Just won't happen, there is a cultural block in the sector in many ways, and a huge amount of the time it's about an individual's feelings, rather than anything factual. That's why tons of leadership teams are running around with Macbook Pros under their arm, but spend 95% of their IT based work day in a browser.

Printing is the biggest bugbear I have/had. It's definitely a cultural shift but it's embedded so deeply into education that a school has to take a stance from Governors/SLT. IT can't make that change directly unless they are represented well on SLT or are a member of that team.

[theeggmaster]

1 hour ago, Rob_D said:

Would be interesting, but coming from a M365 school, it sounds like a lot of work and staff training, which all costs.

You should see if you can get a few Chromebooks to try it with M365. It works surprisingly well and there is a lot of integration.

[drutt]

3 minutes ago, DrCheese said:

@paulkerton You hit the nail on head here I think. IT comes up with X scheme. X Scheme is approved by the powers above & given backing.

 

Y Person/school doesn't like it. Y Person/school or kicks off/throws toys out of pram - Essentially makes enough noise. insist that they can't work any other way & it's impossible despite everyone else doing so.

 

X scheme gets changed to placate or watered down, resulting in.. no savings.

 

 

 

Worksheets, oh the worksheets that could just be stuck on the screen/email/teams for the students, printed just so they can get thrown away at the end of the lesson. So much wasted printing.

 

Thankfully I've managed to convince plenty of the largest print users to make their A4 booklets A5 which brings in some savings. The amount of whole year group A4 booklets that were being printed in full colour every term was a huge waste of money and time for repro.

[mthomas08]

40 minutes ago, paulkerton said:

You might have enough devices on your site to run a 1:1 scheme, but someone won't like the idea of doing that, so you end up with more devices than people to cover all the major departments.

Ohhhhhhhhh yes.

 

When we had a device scheme, one selling point was 'we won't need to print so much'. One year.. we had the biggest invoice in my 20+ year career. It was about £32K... for one quatre... our printer budget for a year was £10K with a £5K contingency. I think that year we spent about £50K.

 

Hell, one of those people printed off the entire documentation on a platform which was a few thousand pages and chucked it on my desk. Instead of telling me that we need to deal with password resetting so he doens't have to do it. He really didn't care when the HT said about the printer bill "oh well". We were also spending about £25K+ annually on systems we didn't need and high costs on the things we did need like broadband.

Edited April 1, 2025 by mthomas08

[PotNoodleTech]

24 minutes ago, mthomas08 said:

Ohhhhhhhhh yes.

 

When we had a device scheme, one selling point was 'we won't need to print so much'. One year.. we had the biggest invoice in my 20+ year career. It was about £32K... for one quatre... our printer budget for a year was £10K with a £5K contingency. I think that year we spent about £50K.

 

Hell, one of those people printed off the entire documentation on a platform which was a few thousand pages and chucked it on my desk. Instead of telling me that we need to deal with password resetting so he doens't have to do it. He really didn't care when the HT said about the printer bill "oh well". We were also spending about £25K+ annually on systems we didn't need and high costs on the things we did need like broadband.

 

Thats exaclty why I've never set up cloud printing on the 1:1 chromebooks.

 

It can technically be accomplisehd - but sure as heck I aint setting it up!!!