Are ESS trying to make it harder to migrate away from to SIMS?

[dmj]

Out of interest, what is the preferred SaaS document storage model nowadays. I remember when on Progresso, we produced fantastic looking end of year reports - really good looking, a lot of detail, agreeably branded, but several pages long. We stored other sizeable documents too. At times, I considered just storing a link to our near limitless Google Workspace. We could control access rights nicely, but it never felt quite right.

 

Moving databases is difficult at the best of times, adding document storage to this massively increases the issues you're likely to encounter just by the increased db size alone. As noted, storage costs on db's is expensive and means recovery isn't straightforward.

We put a link into the database that points to a bucket, the application can then either render the document itself or just point to the (CDN backed) bucket. The link to the bucket is through a url map and is dynamic so you can easily move buckets around without worrying about updating the database. The bucket just scales with load automatically, independently from the database (further reducing costs)

[psydii]

Long ago (on prem, but around the transition to cloud-only), I'm pretty sure we had attached documents as blobs outside the database.

 

In the same timeframe, I also seem to recall that the 'bromcom way' (which differed greatly from the two dominant providers at the time, SIMS and CMIS) was that documents in the traditional sense should not be generated, and the feature to store them was almost added under duress. The cloud pricing reflected this - it was to "encourage" adopting the workflows as designed.

 

But that was so far in the past in cloud terms, I might as well be talking about winfolder.

[David44]

Surely the obvious solution for a SAAS is not to store the documents at all. Store the data and a template and recreate the document when it is needed with maybe some kind of X day cache so frequently accessed documents aren't created several times.

[MartinT]

Store the data and a template and recreate the document when it is needed with maybe some kind of X day cache so frequently accessed documents aren't created several times.

 

That falls down with report systems like SIMS where the template is modified to match the current reporting season, etc. It would need to keep a version history of all templates so that the correct one is used for reprints of historical reports.

[mthomas08]

I can understand why people don't want to leave SIMs.

 

For us, we heavily relied on it and multiple people are employed to do their daily jobs within the MIS: attendance/personnel/data manager/admissions/SEN/Timetabling and that before we discuss the general registers/student parent support.

 

There are certain tasks that can't be done in Bromcom compared to SIMs - data manager related.

She had discussions with Bromcom and they confirmed it can't be done.

Attendance also had similar discussions.

 

Generally everyone else is happy but it is a change and reliability is a key factor. Bromcom reliability has been poor compared to SIMs but I made it clear that I spent a lot of time making it reliable. Patches were done outside normal hours and updates were done during holidays. I know how to use SIMs and maintain the SQL and Solus. Originally the system wasn't setup correctly and had serious performance issues - only have to look at the endless posts on EduGeek to find schools struggling with SIMs.

 

Worth the change though. I don't have to worry about another backup or updates during evenings or maintaining the SQL. My only issue is MCAS clearly not as fluid as EduLinkOne - which was very easy to filter out inactive parents with email addresses and send the details. Plus the student portal just worked. The MCAS has improved lately with some nice updates.

 

Again - worth the change.

[psydii]

Surely the obvious solution for a SAAS is not to store the documents at all. Store the data and a template and recreate the document when it is needed with maybe some kind of X day cache so frequently accessed documents aren't created several times.

That I think was the original philosophy in the Bromcom MIS. I can't speak to how things are now, but I know that some customers did not really get on board with that. It required (for those customers) too great a shift in mental model on how things work. - try explaining Normalization to a Head teacher.

 

(actually I had success with that once - they had a postgrad degree in something adjacent to set theory, but the except makes the rule eh?)

 

It also somewhat is counter to how cloud scale databases work - where normalization more readily comes at too high a cost to performance.

 

The final point against it is that you need to see what the letter/report actually said not what it would say if you were to run it today.

[Ditto]

I can understand why people don't want to leave SIMs.

...There are certain tasks that can't be done in Bromcom compared to SIMs - data manager related.

She had discussions with Bromcom and they confirmed it can't be done.

...

I'd be really interested in knowing the details on these tasks. Also, how those tasks are dealt with by other MIS, in particular Arbor.

[Ditto]

That I think was the original philosophy in the Bromcom MIS. I can't speak to how things are now, but I know that some customers did not really get on board with that. It required (for those customers) too great a shift in mental model on how things work. - try explaining Normalization to a Head teacher.

 

(actually I had success with that once - they had a postgrad degree in something adjacent to set theory, but the except makes the rule eh?)

 

It also somewhat is counter to how cloud scale databases work - where normalization more readily comes at too high a cost to performance.

 

The final point against it is that you need to see what the letter/report actually said not what it would say if you were to run it today.

I can't recall that I've worked with a head who'd entertain a conversation about caching or normalisation! They just want the system to be quick, reliable, functionally rich, easy to use, and as inexpensive as possible!

[psydii]

I can't recall that I've worked with a head who'd entertain a conversation about caching or normalisation! They just want the system to be quick, reliable, functionally rich, easy to use, and as inexpensive as possible!

 

To be honest the conversation was brief and I only went there because I knew that their background meant they'd "get it" quickly and they would have a sense of learning something their peers wouldn't understand. That little bit of knowledge helped smooth over the "well this is fast to do this, but slow to do that" conversations.

 

I've been lucky that most of my Heads have had Science/Maths/Medical PhDs and/or MBAs. A couple had even been quite competent Network Managers!

[Ditto]

Interesting post from @bringmoredata (aka Joshua Perry). https://www.linkedin.com/posts/joshuaperryuk_guidance-to-customers-extracting-data-from-activity-7144076127815286785-UD4k/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

 

not least for the fact that a post queried about other MIS providers being open to open access to their systems if someone decides to move to another provider, potentially moving to SIMS. CEO of Arbor replied and nipped that in the bud in an instant!

 

Also interesting to hear the comments on accessing SIMS data by the means ESS suggest.

Edited February 9, 2024 by Ditto

[mthomas08]

I'd be really interested in knowing the details on these tasks. Also, how those tasks are dealt with by other MIS, in particular Arbor.

 

I don't know the details, in the end I got them to sit down with Bromcom virtual meetings to sort it all out. Both times I got told "bromcom admit they can't do it" and there is no work around for it.

 

Believe it had to do with making tasks easier and quicker. Related to Attendance and Data Manager.

[dmj]

CEO of Arbor replied and nipped that in the bud in an instant!

I assumed it was the CEO of Arbor as well with all that talk of ethics.

[Jonah]

Interestingly, when we migrated one of our schools was using SIMS Hosted. We contacted them explaining we were planning a migration, and they happily transferred to us via SFTP a full backup of the database as requested, to be passed to our new provider…

[dmj]

More info here https://schoolsweek.co.uk/competition-watchdog-pulled-into-mis-dispute-again/

[Ditto]

More info here https://schoolsweek.co.uk/competition-watchdog-pulled-into-mis-dispute-again/

I'm not surprised and GOOD!

[DrCheese]

Arbor have (To put it bluntly) slapped their parts down on a table here.

 

https://arbor-education.com/blog-arbor-switching-guarantee/

 

– Arbor will take legal responsibility when you transfer your school data to us via backup file: The Arbor Switching Guarantee means that you will not carry any risk for transferring your school data to us using a backup file

 

Saying to ESS "Put up, or shut up" As they know full well that if this goes to court, ESS will be slapped down for being anti competitive.

 

– If you ever want to leave, Arbor commits to giving you a full and complete backup file. This has always been our commitment to schools, because you should never be blocked from switching by your supplier

 

They cover themselves with this also.

 

If ESS had spent the past 3 years on actually improving their product instead of treating their customers like trash, they'd be in a far better position than they are now. As it stands they seem determined to self-immolate.

[Bromcom_Marketing]

Bromcom: “… any legal action against SIMS schools, Bromcom will cover approved legal costs for these schools”

Schools Week:

 

Ali Guryel said his firm is “also initiating in the High Court an injunction to halt this anti-competitive behaviour by ESS”.

 

“Bromcom’s position is that schools should proceed with their migration process. [ESS] has taken steps to create barriers for schools wishing to migrate from SIMS to other MIS providers.”

 

[bromcom ] ... have committed to support schools in any legal action as a result of the database back-up issue.

 

 

- https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ali-guryel-18892715_competition-watchdog-pulled-into-mis-dispute-activity-7161782537328025600-yUFw?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

Edited February 9, 2024 by Bromcom_Marketing

[DrCheese]

Outstanding - So both the other major players are taking on the legal risk now, so SIMS have.. shot themselves in the foot for no real reason

[Ditto]

If MIS players were pupils in a school, ESS would have been reported for bullying, but in this case, those they have tried to bully, have hit back... and hard! Looking forward to the CMA investigation - but that will take some time.

[nicholab]

If MIS players were pupils in a school, ESS would have been reported for bullying, but in this case, those they have tried to bully, have hit back... and hard! Looking forward to the CMA investigation - but that will take some time.

 

I would ignore the what ESS say what the data commissioner going to say stealing a schools data. Also why are the management so stupid to come up with statements like this surely any school would win if taken to court it’s their data? Personally SIMS software should be seized by the government and the company should be wound up.

Edited February 10, 2024 by nicholab

[CrootUK]

https://www.ess-sims.co.uk/resources/blog/mis-migrations-setting-story-straight

[Ditto]

I raised this earlier, but is the ESS code available within the database in a readable format or is it encrypted? Forced decryption of the document store wouldn't be acceptable, but would make you wonder about the level of security of the code and/or the document store. Their statement about access to data via API's seems to be regarded by some as not sufficient/convenient/time efficient. This story clearly has some way to run. It's sad that the topic of discussion for the MIS market place is basically legal warfare amongst the top 3 players - would be so much better to be discussing improved performance, stability, availability and improved functionality from them all.

 

In some ways I get where ESS are coming from, but I think reaction to their 3 year contract saga, which remember CMA investigation led to changes, leaves them on the back foot in terms of perceptions here.

[DrCheese]

That blogpost is pure cope & completely undermined by SIMS themselves, giving customers who wanted to move away from hosted solutions full copies of their database.

 

All of SIMS's current issues are entirely of their own making & this is them throwing their toys out of the pram on the way out.

They could have avoided a lot of this if they had bothered to upgrade SIMS to a full cloud-featured MIS & not relied on schools hosting it themselves (Or their half-baked HTML option)

 

They wouldn't have needed to lock customers in *last-minute* to 3-year contracts - Yes, they point at the competition for this & say they do it, but the fact is the way they did it super last minute was blatantly designed to leave schools with little choice - Besides if they had a good product, many schools might have willingly signed up for 3-year contracts if offered (Maybe they should have asked themselves why schools didn't mind their competitors doing it?)

 

It's clear that the CMA walking away from the previous argument was premature & they will need to step in to ensure that all MIS Vendors (Not just ESS) are forced to always provide simple migration options, without any roadblocks between MIS's to ensure that Captia/ESS's dominance & abuse is never allowed to repeat itself.

[dmj]

I raised this earlier, but is the ESS code available within the database in a readable format

The backup file would have the necessary SQL code to reproduce the database, I think that's what they are claiming.

I can't see how their legal argument would work, the point of copyright on the schema is so that somebody cannot make a derivative work - but nobody is actually doing that so their tactic is just to scare schools rather than that they have an enforceable legal route to prevent its use.

[Bromcom-PR]

Let’s see if we can help here:

 

Forced decryption of the document store wouldn't be acceptable, but would make you wonder about the level of security of the code and/or the document store.

Bromcom is a Technical Partner with ESS (originally with Capita) since 2003 when Bromcom forced upon Capita via OFT to give Voluntary Assurance. This provides Bromcom use of APIs and DLL. Hence in this case DLLs are useful for proper decryption. Hence we can confirm ESS reference to “ one of the competitors” is not Bromcom.

 

Further more under ESS Technical Agreement, ESS provides Bromcom a licensed copy of SIMS SQL database and full application. This means Bromcom is already possession of SIMS SQL data base. Therefore ESS claiming that when schools handover a copy of backup of their SIMS SQL causes Bromcom being provided with ESS IP is false. In fact Bromcom instructing schools to use Microsoft Studio to strip out everything out of SIMS SQL backup copy other than the data. Hence distancing schools from handing over to Bromcom anything other than data which is totally schools’ property. Schools as data owner and controller, have all the right to handover their data for off boarding and as incumbent vendor ESS must cooperate and respect this.

APIs:

However the APIs refer to in context of migration are useless for following reasons:

 

• Scope of data items: Very limited
  
• Method: APIs designed for 3rd party bolt-ons and not for migration. Hence data items brought single entity rather than bulk. Hence incredibly inefficient even for electronic means.
  
• Technology: Dates back to Windows on- premise legacy and not lend themselves for cloud working
  

 

It's sad that the topic of discussion for the MIS market place is basically legal warfare amongst the top 3 players - would be so much better to be discussing improved performance, stability, availability and improved functionality from them all.

Could not agree more. This is very sad specially in EdTech space where children education should be focus. However it is for these reasons that well over 50% of market (when you add Wales and Northern Ireland) is on non-cloud MİS in UK. At least Northern Ireland with 1,100 schools now has made the jump into cloud with Bromcom.

 

In some ways I get where ESS are coming from

Bromcom sees a very quick decision is very critical and hence whilst Bromcom has engaged fully with CMA, it is imperative that ESS threatening schools with a false statement at least in Bromcom case is halt and an Injunction through Hugh Coirt is the only swift route. As in the past Bromcom does not take legal actions lightly and always sees it va ery last resort. We believe, one should view any legal action in wider picture and longer term benefit for the education market when over 5 years market value of over £1 billion is considered.

Bromcom: “… any legal action against SIMS schools, Bromcom will cover approved legal costs for these schools”

 

We have full commitment to standby schools if any legal action is taken by ESS - please see :

https://bromcom.com/news/support-for-sims-schools

 

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/chrisjameskirk_mis-migrations-setting-the-story-straight-activity-7162469784255717376-pIoi?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios

 

We hope the above helps.

Edited February 11, 2024 by Bromcom-PR