New Dark Fibre connection, vs new BT Fibre connection - is there a big difference?

[Bev]

We are being pushed by our LEA to sign up for the installation of a new cable for a 'dark fibre' network at a cost of £1200/year for 25 years. That's just for the cable installation.

Alternatively, we can move to a local provider who would use the existing infrastructure and there would be no installations costs. The local provider are offering '1000Mbps FTTP Internet Broadband Service'

 

The service costs for both a broadly similiar. Having just had a discussion with the LEA about the benefits of the dark fibre option, the main benefit seems to be 'future proofing', and that the bandwidth / speeds can be increased in the future.

 

I can't find any information about what the actual difference is between the two. Other than dark fibre uses 'unlit' fibres.

 

Does anyone know / understand what the actual benefits are? It's a big investment if the BT line will be sufficient, but if we will be regretting it in 5 or 10 years time, then maybe it is worth the investment?

[asteer]

Dark fibre is pretty much a point to point dedicated fibre line. Its not "managed" by anyone so you have to have your own company/equipment to "light" the fibre, no one else would use it other than yourself

[CHiLL]

From what I can gather, dark fibre can also refer to unused fibre runs owned by companies like BT, Virgin, etc and can be leased out to companies. Even if this dark fibre is being used by a leasee, which would send light down the cable, it's still classed as dark because the owner of the cable isn't operating it.

 

So your LEA are saying that the installation cost of that cable would be £30,000 and want you to pay over a 25-year period. You'd then have to source your own actual Internet service on top of that?

 

Assuming my understanding of dark fibre is right, I'd be noping out of that deal unless it was a last resort.

[synaesthesia]

That last "local provider option" - is that a standard business setup? Contention etc as opposed to a leased line might be a concern.

[Bev]

rom what I can gather, dark fibre can also refer to unused fibre runs owned by companies like BT, Virgin, etc and can be leased out to companies. Even if this dark fibre is being used by a leasee, which would send light down the cable, it's still classed as dark because the owner of the cable isn't operating it.

 

Thats what I thought until today but this is a brand new line which will be installed - hence the high fee. I think the reason it is dark is because BT etc dont' provide a service on it, you have to provide your own service, which in our case would be provided by the council.

 

They will also provide the internet service for an additional charge. I don't have a problem with their charge for the internet service, but I am struggling to see the benefits of a 25 year lease on a new line when I can use a BT line for no installation costs. However, I feel I must be missing something.

[Rob_D]

I wonder if the LEA is planning on some sort of dark fiber wan or something similar further down the line?

[asteer]

https://www.dudley.gov.uk/news/dark-fibre-sees-the-light-of-day-in-dudley/

 

Dudley council are doing it for their own network. They are renting the line from Virgin, but it seems in your case that there will be a dedicated fibre line between yourself and the LA.

 

The LA would decide the speeds that you get but in theory the max could be whatever a fibre line can take (in theory 2/3 the speed of light).

 

Leasing for 25 years locks you in for a long time. I suppose in that time everyone else could improve their speeds, so its really if you want to take the risk

[CHiLL]

Thats what I thought until today but this is a brand new line which will be installed - hence the high fee. I think the reason it is dark is because BT etc dont' provide a service on it, you have to provide your own service, which in our case would be provided by the council.

 

They will also provide the internet service for an additional charge. I don't have a problem with their charge for the internet service, but I am struggling to see the benefits of a 25 year lease on a new line when I can use a BT line for no installation costs. However, I feel I must be missing something.

If you have other services available to you, I'd consider reaching out to other companies, like Wave9 for example. We are currently with Virgin Media Business directly and in the process of switching to a 1Gb link from Wave9 and both are significantly cheaper than anything our LEA could quote. Plus no stupidly long contract length.

 

My my experience with a notoriously bad council, I wouldn't put much faith in their promise to upgrade their infrastructure if they offered me that deal.

Edited March 23, 2022 by CHiLL

[supportman]

Best to stay away from long term commitments to the council, especially if they run it.

 

We bought a BT fiber line years ago and install was free with a 5 year contract. Thats long run out now and we pay I think around 6k a year for 500mbit. Its quite competitive these days but of course we can shop around each year or 3 year cycle.

[pete]

What does the school/trust finance policy say about 25-year committments to the same service provider?

 

I suspect it's some variation on "No chance, sunshine".

[Michael]

These are my views -

 

- I've never come across any other contract ICT or not which is for 25 years+

- The world of connectivity, speeds, grades of fibre etc... is changing rapidly

- Will any LA be providing ICT services in 25 years?

- Using Birmingham LA as an example, a lot has changed in the last 5 years

- I consider three years as an optimum contract period, especially for connectivity.

 

- Lastly unless you're a large Secondary in 2022, 1Gb probably isn't necessary, but provisioning say 100Mb or 200Mb+ on a 1Gb bearer would be my advice to any school where infrastructure allows it.

[XiJ]

An LEA? 25 years. No way.

 

Plenty of other options from fttp to leased line. And. I long tie-ins. I’d run a mile at 25 years

[SchoolsBroadband]

All fibre is dark until you put equipment on the end of it and light it up. That's all BT, Virgin and any fibre provider do as well your LA.

 

I'm with everyone else on here. A 25 year contract to use the same carrier?! No Way. There's loads of carriers investing all over the UK at the moment which gives you choice, particularly when you're in a city which I believe you are. The new DFE guidance says that FTTP is fine for a primary school. It will also be much more cost effective.

 

I also see BT Openreach and Virgin offering 100Gbps EAD Ethernet / leased lines in the not too distant future. They're effectively going to be binning 100Mbps very shortly too and incentivising ISPs to take 1Gbps or 10Gbps bearers (just watch 10Gbps prices go down in the next 12 months too).

 

I'm pretty sure if we or any other ISPs on here offered 25 year contracts to our customers we wouldn't have any!

 

Virgin and Cityfibre already offer Dark Fibre connections which we and other ISPs can buy wholesale. BT Openreach do too but only i certain more rural areas. None of them tie ISPs or end customers into 25 year contracts....

 

Dave

[jmak]

I can't conceive of a way they'll be able to compete on costs.

If you're digging in thousands of miles of ducts and running dark fibre you'll get economies of scale from the groundworks contractors and equipment suppliers. If you're a big Telco you'll get better deals on the equipment on the premises. And 24x7 support with a team to fix stuff in holes in the road and hold spare parts? How is an LA going to achieve that? I appreciate that all of the private businesses will add a margin, but I really can't see it working. Run away.

[Wave9_Lee]

Having designed and buit a lot of Local Authority private WAN in the past (when it made sense), my opinion is that it's time for most LAs to get out of the network build business - many already have. Leave telcoing to Telcos - they have the most scale, lowest marginal costs, expertise. Trying to scale and build a WAN for a fixed number of sunscribers, where the demands increase every year, but the subsciber numbers reduce every year is a bad business model. You end up asking a dwindling number of subscribers to pay more and more to support the core infrastructure, staff and licences etc. How many on here have been told by an LA something like;

 

'We can't tell you what your charges are for next year because we don't know how many schools will sign up'

 

or

 

'Next year's charges will be higher because we have fewer schools'

 

And what usually happens is that the large schools with the biggest spend, subsidise the smaller schools, so when they large schools find a better deal in the open market (maybe cheaper/more flexible/more reliable/more secure) then it leaves the small (usually rural) schools holding the bag.

 

Notwithstanding the above, it's likely that Openreach will have fttp in to most schools in the next 2-4 years, which can currently run at 1Gbps for a very good price. Even taking into account demand growth within schools, this will be more than enough for many primary schools, and if not sufficient (perhaps around upload speeds) then you can buy two links from 2 different ISPs and load-balance. This will continue to have a downward effect on leased line connection pricing for those that continue to need/want them (better upstream speeds, no contention, better SLA).

 

There is an ironic set of consequences of an LA announcing their own private network build project;

 

1. If they are planning to use BT/Openreach, that will delay the roll out of natural 'wholesale' fttp services to that region (Why would BT spend their own money to upgrade a region, when the government will pay them to do it

2. If they are planning to use an Alt-net (VMB, CityFibre etc) then Openreach will bring their own plans forward for that area to disrupt the alt-nets business model.

 

it's all a game.

 

Finally, there is, and will continue to be grant funding for local authorities to pay Openreach to provide fttp infrastructure to schools AT NO COST TO THE SCHOOL (see recent DFE announcements).