Garden Fence Ownership - Advice

[L3OUGH]

Hi all,

 

I'm after some advice and/or recommendations. Apologies for the long post.

 

Myself and my partner are first time property owners and we have a little issue with our "rear" neighbour. To cut a long story short the rear fence line in the garden was in a pretty rough way, old school fence, wooden posts with no concrete support. About 6 months ago we had a storm that ripped it clean out the ground and left a massive hole between the property's. I managed to prop the fence up with some lengths of wood I had in the short term. I was aware the lady had a little dog so was concerned the pup would potentially escape into our garden. So I thought I'd pop round, let her know what had happened to the fence and make her aware that it maybe an issue for the dog if the fence moves again (as it was still windy!) and that the fence was going to need to be repaired/replaced.

 

At the time we didn't have house deeds back and I had no idea who legally owned that fence. I was also very aware this was the first time I was going to have to go and speak with a neighbour about an issue. So I was very conscious to do it nicely. So I popped round explained who I was and the situation with the fence, said about concern for her dog and that the fence would require some maintenance. Before I could even finish my opening sentence she took my head off and basically told me to go away, it was my fence, it needed replacing ASAP and she wasn't interested in helping and it had to be done within days/ a week because she wouldn't be able to control the dog/stop the dog as her mobility wasn't great.

 

I came away in awe. I later found out she had told her/my surrounding neighbours I had been round, was aggressive, demanding money etc. Which just wasn't the case. So I decided to ignore it and paid to have the fence replaced anyway as I wanted it sorted and clearly wasn't going to be getting any assistance.

 

During the replacement fence going in, I asked the fitters to bring the fence line towards our property by about 6 inches. 1 as it made the install easier for them and 2 I was now having the mindset of "Move it towards the house, this is my fence now regardless as we've moved into our property" after the way she handled the situation.

 

Now back to present day - the lady has had someone screw an old interior door to the fence I had installed. This is to create a "panel" between her and her direct neighbour, because the existing panel had failed and the dog was now getting into the garden next door. Firstly I'm really annoyed they've screwed it to my panel without asking permission, meaning if I ever needed, I couldn't get the panel out from the concrete posts and the fact it's such an eye sore for us to be looking at as it stands proud above the panels of my fence.

 

So I am in an conundrum about what to do about it. We don't want to be looking at a gloss white interior door standing proud above the fence line for next 10 years, nor do I want to have a fully battle with a neighbour. We have house deeds back now, so I will check them tonight to see if it can shed on any light on who legally owns the rear fence. But part of me feels, regardless of what the deeds may show, I've paid fully to replace it and had it moved towards my property so it's surely now on my land? Should she have seeked permission? Am I entitled to tell her to unscrew it from the fence?

 

I have attached a very quick drawing (done in Paint, I should've been an artist I know!) to attempt to show what I am getting at.

 

 

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this/reply!

 

Cheers

Liam

[paulkerton]

Look at your deeds, and see where the "T" mark sits. Whichever plot of land it heads into, is the person who owns the boundary and therefore whose fence it is legally.

[JordanT91]

Look at your deeds, and see where the "T" mark sits. Whichever plot of land it heads into, is the person who owns the boundary and therefore whose fence it is legally.

 

I haven't owned a house yet where this is present.

[Ditto]

I'd suggest speaking to Citizens' Advice. Neighbourly disputes are never pleasant. There may be mediation options, but CA could advise. Could you put some lattice fencing on top of yours and grow a climbing plant to hide the eye-sore. Unfortunately being legally right in situations like doesn't normally lead to a resolution and ultimately taking legal action may get the 'right' result for you, but comes at a price, not least of which is stress.

[L3OUGH]

Look at your deeds, and see where the "T" mark sits. Whichever plot of land it heads into, is the person who owns the boundary and therefore whose fence it is legally.

Okay thanks. Playing the devil here - if I check tonight and the "T" mark shows on her side.

 

Do I have a leg to stand on? Bearing in mind I paid to have the whole fence replaced and bought forward onto our side of the property line?

[paulkerton]

I haven't owned a house yet where this is present.

 

It doesn't appear on title plans, but does appear on deed plans.

[LeMarchand]

IANAL, but it sounds like the fence is on your property in its entirety - and therefore your property - so you would be within your rights to request the door's removal, not that it sounds like she would comply. It would cost, but I'd seriously think about putting the fence where it should be to head off any potential boundary disputes in the future. I guess if she should have replaced the original fence you could take yours down to encourage this (or for her to pay for the move). She would be entitled to place the door on her own fence, though.

 

I have a friend who had a gentleman's agreement with their neighbour where they "swapped" part of their shared entrance. The next owner wanted it swapped back solely at my friend's expense. My friend started to get a lot of punctures from nails that "somehow" fell in front of her house when she refused. Boundary disputes can get quite nasty!

[Koldov]

Wow! I do not envy you... Neighbourly disputes can quickly escalate unfortunately and there may be few things you should have done differently in hindsight.

 

I'm sure you know what to look for on your deeds, but this thread has some details:

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/general-chat/226447-storm-dudley-eunice-franklin-how-you-doing-3.html#post1942014

 

There is also this from one of the links in that thread:

 

"There are various notions that the way a wall or fence is constructed indicates ownership, for example that the posts and arris rails of a fence are on the owner’s side. There is, however, no legal foundation for such beliefs"

 

I (hopefully not to jinx it) have OK neighbours at the moment, I think I would have a really hard time coping with ones that aren't...

 

As for moving the fence towards your house, it probably wasn't a good idea as it seems this is what left the gap she has had to block? This will also alter your boundary and in future you may lose the rights to it (I know it's only 6 inches)...

 

If it was your responsibility to maintain, you probably should have just had it repaired/replace in-situ. If it wasn't your responsibility, I might have been tempted to build a new fence 6 inches back from the old one and leave the old one as it was.

 

Tough decision though as you obviously wanted it fixed before you had the deeds, but I might have done something a little more temporary until I knew for certain. It might also have been worth asking neighbours either side of you if they knew who is responsible for their rear fence?

 

As for attaching things to it, I know it may seem annoying, but are there ways you can mitigate it? Say, planting a tree in that corner or put some trellis up... As it is a boundary fence between gardens I don't know if there is any law stating what you can or cannot attach to it from the 'other' non-owner side. I mean would it be bad if she attached some garden ornaments or lights on her side (I know it is a big white gloss door)?

[TwistedHelixis]

OK, if the deeds say it her fence....

 

The fence in your garden is your property, she still needs to put in a new fence on the boundary.

 

We had two fences at our old house, the previous owner was a nightmare apparently, so they ended up in a similar situation.

[TronXP]

The black belt barrister

at 2.40 seems to suggest that if it is "your fence" your neighbour has no right to hang or even paint the fence without your consent.

[L3OUGH]

Another point worth noting - part of the reason for moving the fence was because the she has a row of massive trees, so when the chaps were digging the trenches for the new concrete posts/gravel boards, they physically couldn't, due to the size of the roots of her conifer trees (I think they are conifers, big thick green things:heh:). So even if she had paid the same situation would of occurred.

 

My gut is telling me, if the deeds state it was my fence, I'll ask for the door to not be secured to the fence. It can stay there, but not screwed to fence. In the hope that it doesn't stay upright and she's forced to do something differently.

 

If the deed's state it's her fence - well I'll be properly annoyed I paid for it, but I'll see if I can come to some arrangement. She if she'll let me cut it level with the fence so we don't have to stare at it for years to come.

[LukeRowberry]

She if she'll let me cut it level with the fence so we don't have to stare at it for years to come.

 

This sounds like a winner

[Koldov]

This might help (plenty of other advice on the internet obviously) I haven't read through all of it, but it is from a fencing company (who should know their stuff, but also might just want you to buy a fence from them)...

 

https://knight-fencing.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Fencing-and-boundary-guide.pdf

 

and this:

 

https://www.lawsons.co.uk/blog/fencing/fencing-and-the-law-know-your-rights-before-choosing-new-fencing

 

Just bear in mind that moving the fence more onto your property caused the gap she has had to fill, also that her original fence would have attached to yours somehow... So even a new small panel will. I know a door is unsightly, but she may not have had the money to have anything done professionally...?

 

EDIT: Just to say if it is an interior door it will deteriorate quite quickly (most are just hollow MDF board or similar) if you cut it down and that makes it open to the elements it will fall apart even quicker...

Edited March 1, 2022 by Koldov

[Ditto]

Okay thanks. Playing the devil here - if I check tonight and the "T" mark shows on her side.

 

Do I have a leg to stand on? Bearing in mind I paid to have the whole fence replaced and bought forward onto our side of the property line?

You do, both legs! Your neighbour has no right to attach to your fence, no right to paint it! You could even involve the police as it is illegal, but the legal route is best left as last resort. Could you find another neighbour that is friendly with your troublesome one and see if they can act as an intermediary to try to establish a sensible dialogue. I know this is sometimes impossible, a few people can just be stubborn and unhelpful. Then you do have to decide whether to pursue a legal solution. I have had a similar challenge over several years on a neighbour who has planted the dreaded Leylandii and has deliberately then grow to such a height it blocks most of our evening sun (when it's out!). Legally I can force it to be reduced to 2 meters. OH not keen on a dispute, neighbour has been asked to reduce the height but has openly admitted they want to block our house out from their view. It's niggles at me every year and one day I just might push for resolution and call upon legal process if necessary. What's really annoying is the council have massively upped their charges to do there bit and it would cost me several hundreds of pounds even before getting to the legal process. This is a neighbour that we have never in 13 years had a ball returned when the kids have had accidentally kicked over the fence, or if one has returned, it's flat as a pancake (appropriate for today perhaps?!) but we couldn't proved they wildly knifed it. On the upside, every other neighbour we have and the 9 in the culd-de-sac are delightful.

[Andrew_C]

Another ways of marking boundary 'ownership' is a red edge to the inside of the boundary. If it is your side of the line, your boundary.

 

USUALLY fence posts are on the owners side of the fence. "Pretty" side towards the neighbors, but don't rely to heavily on this as repairs/replacements get done by those who don't know (or who do, and are uncaring/bloody minded).

[asteer]

This site is probably best for guidance -https://www.pettyson.co.uk/about-us/our-blog/775-which-fence-am-i-responsible-for

 

Boundary ownership can have a lot of old wife tales and unwitten rules said about them which confuses the matter (some fo these have been mentioned in this topic)

[LeMarchand]

Probably the best place to put my moan.

 

As mentioned in the storm thread, we lost three panels in the storm which all turned out to be not our responsibility. One neighbour has refitted and bodged/repaired a panel and left the other (so far?). Not particularly a worry to us as it's out of sight. The other was in severe danger of blowing off and into a nearby summerhouse, greenhouse or possibly even the owner's conservatory and, after trying to secure it during the storm, I managed to lie it flat and use our park picnic style table to weight it down. At the time I thought the fence was "ours", especially as the neighbour was implying that and complaining about damage to the tree in his garden that it was banging against and trying to get me to call insurers etc. When we discovered that it wasn't ours, we left it (other things to worry about) on the assumption that he would have checked his deeds and would deal with it in good time.

 

On Saturday he sent his wife around to complain about the panel not being replaced. I was unavailable at the time and Mme LeMarchand said she'd see what we could do. On Sunday we tried, but the panel was damp and therefore heavy and we discovered that the company he'd used had bodged it anyway. We were unable to replace it, and so went around armed with a copy of the deeds to explain that we were unable to replace the panel, but were prepared to give it one more try should it dry out (we placed it against the remaining panel) but unfortunately that was the best we were prepared to do.

 

Anyway, when we mentioned the deeds he went on the attack saying that he'd removed the Leylandii that were there when he moved in as well as the existing fence (neither of which we'd requested) at great expense to himself and that it was up to us to replace the panel that had fallen. We were so surprised that we didn't counter. We'll stick to the plan of trying to replace the panel once more but, if we can't, things could get sticky. We've had a lot of expenses of late, and don't see why we're responsible for meeting his demands. Might be prepared to contribute for an easy life, but no way are we paying for the replacement.

[LeMarchand]

^^^

 

Just realised that The Holy Grandchildren may have a practical application after all. If Fence Guy wants to carry on being difficult, when the weather improves I'm sure they'd love to be AS LOUD AS THEY LIKE in the garden.

[Koldov]

Anyway, when we mentioned the deeds he went on the attack saying that he'd removed the Leylandii that were there when he moved in as well as the existing fence (neither of which we'd requested) at great expense to himself and that it was up to us to replace the panel that had fallen.

 

Removing the trees and therefore leaving the fence open to the elements/extreme weather/storm/wind and therefore causing the problem... and he replaced the original fence...? Which now has blown down panels...? Seems like he is creating his own prosecution, not defence...

 

^^^

 

Just realised that The Holy Grandchildren may have a practical application after all. If Fence Guy wants to carry on being difficult, when the weather improves I'm sure they'd love to be AS LOUD AS THEY LIKE in the garden.

 

On an 'annoying thing' tangent, relevant to this and not quite annoying enough to go in that thread...

 

First proper warmish sunny day yesterday and when I got home the neighbours had all their windows open and were playing loud cra.... I mean rap music... sigh, I like Winter....

[Achandler]

Deeds might say who is responsible for the boundary, with the marking, they will only very rarely say what this boundary must be. Someone can use some string between two sticks to maintain the boundary, and they are meeting those obligations.

 

Fences/ trees etc are owned by someone, someone paid for it and they are the owner, if it was the previous person who owned your property, then you now own it, whether you need to maintain the boundary or not according to your deeds.

 

So the fence might be yours (as the previous owner installed it), no matter who is responsible for the boundary. I really don't understand why replacing £25 fence panels causes people to fall out. Going round armed with deeds is already over the top to me, you should have gone round and said, you thought the fence was his so he would be replacing the panel, he then says, no I think the fence is yours, then between you, you agree to replace the panel, maintaining the fence and good relationship (hopefully).

 

I replaced the fence on a proportion of my boundary, I didn't need to tell the neighbours I was doing it, but I went wrong and let them know, one offered to contribute towards it. None of he boundaries are marked as mine to maintain, but the old fence was most likely mine, so I replaced it, one neighbour offered to contribute but I said it was fine. If a fence panel needs replacing one day, I'll replace that as well. Admittedly, if you inherit a fence you don't necessarily know who owns it, but don't rely on the deeds, as they don't say who owns what's there.

[LeMarchand]

Deeds might say who is responsible for the boundary, with the marking, they will only very rarely say what this boundary must be. Someone can use some string between two sticks to maintain the boundary, and they are meeting those obligations.

 

Fences/ trees etc are owned by someone, someone paid for it and they are the owner, if it was the previous person who owned your property, then you now own it, whether you need to maintain the boundary or not according to your deeds.

 

So the fence might be yours (as the previous owner installed it), no matter who is responsible for the boundary. I really don't understand why replacing £25 fence panels causes people to fall out. Going round armed with deeds is already over the top to me, you should have gone round and said, you thought the fence was his so he would be replacing the panel, he then says, no I think the fence is yours, then between you, you agree to replace the panel, maintaining the fence and good relationship (hopefully).

 

I replaced the fence on a proportion of my boundary, I didn't need to tell the neighbours I was doing it, but I went wrong and let them know, one offered to contribute towards it. None of he boundaries are marked as mine to maintain, but the old fence was most likely mine, so I replaced it, one neighbour offered to contribute but I said it was fine. If a fence panel needs replacing one day, I'll replace that as well. Admittedly, if you inherit a fence you don't necessarily know who owns it, but don't rely on the deeds, as they don't say who owns what's there.

 

Where do you live that a fence costs £25??? The last one we had replaced was north of £100 and was smaller. That one turned out not to be "ours" when we checked for the current dispute, but as its failure was partially down to our cat we saw it as our duty and didn't even check.

 

Anyhoo, fence definitely not "ours" as it would have been there before the house was even built. We don't see why we should pay, especially as that is the sole storm damage to the other party's property (we are short a shed and greenhouse). He wanted us to claim on our insurance for his fence(!), presumably so his own premium isn't affected, though I suspect our insurers would have refused as it's not "ours" and possibly given us a black mark for trying to fraudulently claim. He's also the type that has complained about the height of a tree in our garden that was there before he purchased his property and, judging by various bodges, probably got on the wrong side of the team that did his Leylandii removal and fencing. Most of all, we have more on our plate to worry about than a missing fence panel. If it bothered us, we'd have suggested splitting the cost. It's bothering him. We went around with the deeds to back up our version, but didn't even get to present the "evidence" as he went on the attack.

 

Last night he turned up with bits and bobs for us to effect repairs on the panel as he seems to expect it done this weekend. That'll depend on the weather and if I can get a brawny helper.

 

This has got me riled up as had his approach been, "I can't afford £££s to get the panel replaced, I don't suppose you would be able to try to do it when you have time?" things would have been very different. I'm seriously considering, if we manage to replace the panel, giving him a letter stating that we have done so to the best of our ability on his request and neither accept any responsibility for the repairs or any future failings that may occur due to weather, age or the like.

 

Apologies to @L3OUGH - hope you are getting your problem sorted.

Edited March 16, 2022 by LeMarchand

[Andrew_C]

Doing things "to keep the neighbors sweet" is all very well, but can cause issues down the line. Stick to what is on the plan if at all possible. Don't move fences, accept responsibility, whatever.

 

My first job, a billion years ago, was as a draughtsman in a surveyors office. They, and lawyers, make lots of money sorting out boundary disputes arising from "good intentions" years ago!

[Achandler]

@LeMarchand I assume that a broken panel, you literally meant a broken Waverley Lap or Featherboard panel. Which you can get round here for £25 each for 6ft x 5ft, I paid £20 a panel only a few months back. Did 8 panels, new posts, gravel boards and concrete for £400 total, with a few friends helping with free labour. Apologies if it isn't this type of panel that is knackered.

 

I entirely agree with you that you shouldn't claim on your insurance and your neighbours shouldn't be expecting that either!

[LeMarchand]

@LeMarchand I assume that a broken panel, you literally meant a broken Waverley Lap or Featherboard panel. Which you can get round here for £25 each for 6ft x 5ft, I paid £20 a panel only a few months back. Did 8 panels, new posts, gravel boards and concrete for £400 total, with a few friends helping with free labour. Apologies if it isn't this type of panel that is knackered.

 

I entirely agree with you that you shouldn't claim on your insurance and your neighbours shouldn't be expecting that either!

 

Whilst nowhere near that cheap from a quick search, I'm guessing the bulk of the cost was the labour when we had it done. Which may be more annoying, as the old git is obviously planning on getting his for free.

[LeMarchand]

Yeah, at the moment I'm wishing that I'd just left the fence in the storm as he'd now be dealing with a lot more damage.

 

Your neighbour sounds like my mother-in-law - people try to help her and end up being cast as evil villains.