Unique Number for Students Lanyards

[Paul_Cluett]

Hi all,

 

We want to print a unique number on each on students lanyards.

 

We are using SIMS. The options seem to be :

 

1. UPN - too long for a student to read out and be entered manually without mistakes
   
2. Adno - 6 digits - seems a possible
   
3. Exam Number - 4 digits - possible but could repeat over years
   

 

Does anyone know which would be better and could last a few student throughputs without being duplicated?

Our school has 1300 students.

 

Thanks

Paul

[stevec_]

When we want to identify unique individuals from SIMS we usually use their Person_id field - don't think you can see this from the UI but you can export the information via a report.

 

[Paul_Cluett]

I've looked but can't find Person_id under design reports.

[pete]

1. UPN - too long for a student to read out and be entered manually without mistakes
   

 

....and also personal data - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/807381/UPN_Guide_1.2.pdf (page 6) which you would be publishing for all to see:

 

GDPR considers the UPN as personal data, as the UPN falls within the scope of ‘identification number’ within the GDPR definition of personal data. As such, UPNs held with, or without, other data items remain within the scope of GDPR and must be protected accordingly

 

Admission numbers are sufficiently unique (and incremental) that you should never have overlap between students.

[ajp233]

@Paul_Cluett Your SIMS login will need Third Party Reporting permissions in order to see Person_ID in Design Report

[paulkerton]

You need to be careful with this one. GDPR/PII and all that.

UPN is definitely PII. I don't know where an internal admission numbers or exam numbers would sit with that, but as they are identifiable I'd cautiously suggest they are also probably PII. One for your DPO or the legend that is @GrumbleDook

Edited March 17, 2021 by paulkerton

[MatthewL]

I don't get what you are trying to achieve here.

 

Surely there would be an ID badge attached to the lanyard?

[Roberto]

Hi all,

 

We want to print a unique number on each on students lanyards.

 

We are using SIMS. The options seem to be :

 

1. UPN - too long for a student to read out and be entered manually without mistakes
   
2. Adno - 6 digits - seems a possible
   
3. Exam Number - 4 digits - possible but could repeat over years
   

 

Does anyone know which would be better and could last a few student throughputs without being duplicated?

Our school has 1300 students.

 

Thanks

Paul

 

On the Lanyard? Do you mean on a badge / card that is attached to a Lanyard?

[GrumbleDook]

When you are collecting data in the first place you need to think about what it needs to be used for. UPN is not a general ID that can be thrown around. For ID between systems, yes ... you can justify it but you should be looking for an alternative (that discussion has been going on for 15+ years ... don't go there!) but for on a lanyard? That is going to be hard to justify.

Admission number is for use internally, or for between systems. The risk of duplication is small but possible ...

Exam Number? Unless you are using it for ID during exam season ... nope.

 

Your best bet is to use something new that can then be tied in with other bits of personal data. To some extent, we can't really say much more unless we know what you are using the ID on the lanyard for.

[Ditto]

As touched on by others, the purpose of the number on the card is a key question? What else is on the card - photo, name, class group? If you do get to the point where you have a need and valid purpose, hexadecimal can be more space efficient. Also, perhaps a bar code or QR code could be of use. Knowing what the card is being used would help us offer best advice. In many schools (mostly secondary), they use RFID cards with dedicated printers to include a photo for Id, and a unique code to support linking to lunch payments and managed, chargeable printing solutions.

[vikpaw]

Always used AdmissionNo or equivalent for this sort of thing. That was pre-GDPR.

It's still probably the best option, short of creating and storing a new number/id series.

I'd just make it small enough to not be readable without having it held up close, and consider turning it into a barcode.

[enjay]

....and also personal data - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/807381/UPN_Guide_1.2.pdf (page 6) which you would be publishing for all to see:

 

GDPR considers the UPN as personal data, as the UPN falls within the scope of ‘identification number’ within the GDPR definition of personal data. As such, UPNs held with, or without, other data items remain within the scope of GDPR and must be protected accordingly

 

Since the ID badge also presumably contains the students' names, photos and which school they attend, I'm guessing PII isn't a concern here...

[paulkerton]

Since the ID badge also presumably contains the students' names, photos and which school they attend, I'm guessing PII isn't a concern here...

 

Oh it very much is a concern. Name and a photo on a card issued to a student is very different when you attach a number which can be used to identify students in different situations to it.

DPIAs should be done across the board. The question has to be why students would need an ID badge or lanyard in the first place, let alone an ID number on it? Staff can identify them via the MIS, which has the photos on record, and they can be identified by their school uniform. Different for staff or Post-16 students...

 

Unless there is a purpose for the number, then why have it at all?

[enjay]

Oh it very much is a concern. Name and a photo on a card issued to a student is very different when you attach a number which can be used to identify students in different situations to it.

 

Hence my other suggestion (which I see now didn't post) of using AdNo or Person_ID since those are internal numbers only, so probably wouldn't be aggregated with anything else of substance. RFID badges would have a unique number on them anyway, so you could potentially use that too.

 

Maybe at this point it would be useful to know what the OP is trying to achieve...

[Paul_Cluett]

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. To answer a few questions:

 

Yes, the lanyard is the strap - I used it a shorthand for the student ID card that will be attached to it. It will have a photo id, name and a number. It will probably have RFID to allow students to enter the school and also pay for their meals.

 

The reason for the number? Many of of our our students have legal names that are different for their day-to-day names. Some Yr7 students don't even know these and further shorten or choose their own. So when forms are filled in, they can mistakenly use a name that can't be found in SIMS reports. Asking them to enter a number from their card in any form will give a key that can be used as a lookup.

 

From reading the first few pages of the https://assets.publishing.service.go..._Guide_1.2.pdf they recommend using the Admissions number for day to day usage.

 

Some people have said they are worried about having data on a card - my son's school has all the above.

 

 

[enjay]

Yes, the lanyard is the strap - I used it a shorthand for the student ID card that will be attached to it. It will have a photo id, name and a number. It will probably have RFID to allow students to enter the school and also pay for their meals.

 

They'll get lost and/or stolen, and you'll have all sorts of parental complaints about food their child didn't buy. Our Sixth Formers have RFID cards, but I wouldn't fancy doing it further down the school. Have you considered biometrics?

 

That said, we had a complaint from a parent at my previous school where we had biometrics, they even sent me an article explaining the likelihood of two students having prints which are sufficiently similar for the scanner to confuse - we got their child to scan a different finger and the problem went away. No idea if the problem was real, or if this was the wake-up call for the child to stop buying food for their mates!

 

The reason for the number? Many of of our our students have legal names that are different for their day-to-day names. Some Yr7 students don't even know these and further shorten or choose their own. So when forms are filled in, they can mistakenly use a name that can't be found in SIMS reports. Asking them to enter a number from their card in any form will give a key that can be used as a lookup.

 

I think Admission Number is your friend here.

Edited March 18, 2021 by enjay

[Paul_Cluett]

Thanks to all for replies - I think the Admissions Number will be the number.

[David44]

They'll get lost and/or stolen, and you'll have all sorts of parental complaints about food their child didn't buy. Our Sixth Formers have RFID cards, but I wouldn't fancy doing it further down the school.

 

Wouldn't the card have a unique number too, so that card could be disabled if reported lost or stolen?

[paulkerton]

Wouldn't the card have a unique number too, so that card could be disabled if reported lost or stolen?

Yes, but you need to make sure that parents understand that the liability to report that it is lost or stolen is on the child, so the school aren't liable for refunding due to that.

That's probably why, even with the PII issues fingerprints can entail, a lot of schools still go down that route. Much harder (though not impossible) to lose your thumb.

[enjay]

Wouldn't the card have a unique number too, so that card could be disabled if reported lost or stolen?

 

Of course, but how quickly? Let's say the card gets dropped at morning break, the child notices it missing part-way through lunch when they come to pay for their own lunch, then reports it missing. By that time, whoever found it during break could have used a lot of money. Even if whoever found it only spent a few quid, how would you determine what the owner had bought before losing the card? Or perhaps a child could claim to have lost their card and then found it again, and challenge some purchase made during the time it was "missing". Alternatively, a card could be forcibly taken from a child who is also told if they report it, they'll get beaten up again (I accept even with biometrics, a child could be under pressure to buy something and then hand it over).

 

Some of these can be mitigated by staff on the tills checking the photo on the card/till display matches the student presenting it, but as I'm sure you're aware, students don't always look like their MIS photo.

 

You can lose your fingerprint, but if you do, how you buy a doughnut is probably not your primary concern at the time!

[Steve21]

Of course, but how quickly? Let's say the card gets dropped at morning break, the child notices it missing part-way through lunch when they come to pay for their own lunch, then reports it missing. By that time, whoever found it during break could have used a lot of money

 

Isn't that more of an issue relating to generic monitoring though of theft/misuse, like via CCTV/catering reports etc, as what's the difference if a kids fingerprint doesn't work for a reason and they need to do a manual lookup? If they aren't looking at pictures and accept whatever name is said to allow the student to use another account that's the same principle to someone using another card etc

 

Even with biometrics we get the same cases where people say it wasn't them and it must be broken/not working so want refunds which are dealt with via alternative routes

 

Steve

[enjay]

Isn't that more of an issue relating to generic monitoring though of theft/misuse, like via CCTV/catering reports etc, as what's the difference if a kids fingerprint doesn't work for a reason and they need to do a manual lookup? If they aren't looking at pictures and accept whatever name is said to allow the student to use another account that's the same principle to someone using another card etc

 

Well, that's solved by telling the staff not to just accept the name, but to check the photo. If in doubt, refuse them until a teacher can confirm that is the child but they have a bad photo.

 

Even with biometrics we get the same cases where people say it wasn't them and it must be broken/not working so want refunds which are dealt with via alternative routes

 

With one exception, we never had any problems once we proved the child identified via biometrics.

[Steve21]

Well, that's solved by telling the staff not to just accept the name, but to check the photo. If in doubt, refuse them until a teacher can confirm that is the child but they have a bad photo.

 

With one exception, we never had any problems once we proved the child identified via biometrics.

 

That's not always the case that you can though, you can't just refuse a FSM kid meals just because you don't like their picture similarness etc (as a random example), and with limited times at lunch/break etc finding staff who know the students isn't always going to work

 

We get it all the time where people claim it wasn't them, even though it's biometric, as they've bought something their parent don't like and they've complained when the reports come through to them and the kids say it wasn't me etc

 

Steve

[Ditto]

Free school meals for all? Funded by the savings on all that technology - remainder, if any, by a fractional tax hike.

[Ditto]

That post of mine reminded me of a well known Edugeeker recognised by short simple replies, but sometimes there's a nugget in there