Serco Facility and MS SQL server Express edition

[cheredenine]

I've just started at a school as Network Manager and one of the many projects to get stuck into is an already-in-progress move from Phoenix Gold to Serco's Facility MIS. Serco recommend the standard edition of MS' SQL Server 2005, but i wondered if it would run on the free Express edition as SIMS (the MIS from my previous school) does quite happily.

 

The response I got on asking the rep this question was a no and a link to a features comparison page- their technical people apparently reckon the Express editon is 'too limited for Facility when used in a secondary school'. Has anyone out there tried it? Call me cynical, but i'm wondering if i've got the easy answer, rather than the correct one!

 

Cheers...

[Michael]

Although Sims and CMIS probably will run on SQL 2005 Express, Standard edition contains many more features which may be required when performing certain tasks.

 

Some LA's like Birmingham provide SQL Server 2005 at much cheaper prices than it would cost retail. Standard Edition from Birmingham is £128 and CALs £16 each.

[maniac]

I think it might work, but you could run into some problems.

 

Firstly, SQL Server 2005 Express can access only a single CPU and 1 GB of RAM, which might be a problem if you're running a lot of users on E-portal as that can be quite heavy on database queries.

 

Also the maximum database size on SQL serever 2005 express is 4GB, which you could get to at some point in the future with Sercos product, our's has been running for 3 years now and our database is about 1.4GB now, and is increasing a lot faster in recent times as Serco add features to their products.

 

Apart from those limitations, I don't think there's any reason it won't work, but personally I would recommend you get the full edition of SQL server if you can.

 

Mike.

Edited May 28, 2008 by maniac
Spelling!

[Guest monkeyx]

I run SQL express for the test version of CMIS and have had not had any issues. Although there are never more than several people connected at once. You would need to check on limitations of SQL express if you had many concurrent connections on a live system.

 

I did try and install to MySQL once, but I did not work. Neve got a proper answer form Serco, as to if/when they would add support this

[SYNACK]

I run SQL express for the test version of CMIS and have had not had any issues. Although there are never more than several people connected at once. You would need to check on limitations of SQL express if you had many concurrent connections on a live system.

 

There is no connection limit on the SQL 2005 express edition but it does not support some of the advanced features like live database replication and RDA. It is limited to only one CPU though so as long as your site does not have heaps of concurrent connections and the software does not require any of the advanced features.

 

It also does not include most of the management tools included in the full product so troubleshooting some problems may require a bit more work as the providers instructions are sure to use these tools. SQL Management Studio Express does add lots of management options so this may be sufficient.

[cheredenine]

Hmmm... Not sure i'm feeling brave enough to risk it, so I think i'll play it safe! As i'm new to the school I'm not sure how staff will react and don't want to be stuck with poor performance if they all jump on board straight away. Plus, the new server we've got coming to run it on is fairly decent spec; shame not to use all the cores...

 

Thanks guys.

[SYNACK]

Just had another look and it seems it is liscenced per CPU so one CPU could be four cores if you have quad core cpus in your server.

 

Still standard is probably the best call, I had a look at the feature matrix and SQL express only uses up to 1 gig of ram and has a 4gb database size. Standard uses up to 4 cpus and as much ram as you have, Enterprise has no limit on core usage or memory

[michael2k6]

Hi,

 

I was the technical engineer at Serco who responded to your query through your implementation manager.

Something else to bare in mind is the bulk of our testing, to know knowledge is performed on SQL 2005 SP2. If you had express and ran into an issue which appeared to be SQL related, and we couldn't replicate it, it's another difference at your site which could only be tested by purchasing the full version. So to avoid this scenario, it would be worth buying the standard edition. SQL will also use more than 1gb of RAM if your server is high enough spec'd (especially during times of high throughput such as assessment periods).

 

Michael Sanderson

Technical Engineer

Serco Learning

 

 

 

N.B: The content in the above post contains views which belong to myself and do not reflect those of my employer.

[mattx]

I've just started at a school as Network Manager and one of the many projects to get stuck into is an already-in-progress move from Phoenix Gold to Serco's Facility MIS. Serco recommend the standard edition of MS' SQL Server 2005, but i wondered if it would run on the free Express edition as SIMS (the MIS from my previous school) does quite happily.

 

The response I got on asking the rep this question was a no and a link to a features comparison page- their technical people apparently reckon the Express editon is 'too limited for Facility when used in a secondary school'. Has anyone out there tried it? Call me cynical, but i'm wondering if i've got the easy answer, rather than the correct one!

 

Cheers...

 

We have Facility MIS running VERY happily on SQL Server 2000 - I find it very hard to believe that it now requires SQL Server 2005.....Unless something quite dramatic has developed within the product.....

[nicholab]

The reason for it the upgrade is that it is going to be an unsupported product. I bet you not still running windows 98. This is the core business platform of the school is it needs to be supported!!!

[Michael]

SQL 2000 is now out of mainstream support!

 

Sims.NET for example also requires SQL 2005 since March '08 and later, so no longer works on SQL 2000.

[Tallwood_6]

The reason for it the upgrade is that it is going to be an unsupported product. I bet you not still running windows 98. This is the core business platform of the school is it needs to be supported!!!

 

I believe that sql 2000 is still widely used in industry. Yes mainstream support has ended but then so will XP's long before people stop using it.

[cheredenine]

Thanks for your reply. I think we'll go down the 'Standard edition' route as you suggest - i was hoping i could save a few quid with the free version, but it seems its not to be! Given the spec of the new server we have coming, it'd be a shame to have Facility limited because our database software can only address 1gb of memory...

 

Hi,

 

I was the technical engineer at Serco who responded to your query through your implementation manager.

Something else to bare in mind is the bulk of our testing, to know knowledge is performed on SQL 2005 SP2. If you had express and ran into an issue which appeared to be SQL related, and we couldn't replicate it, it's another difference at your site which could only be tested by purchasing the full version. So to avoid this scenario, it would be worth buying the standard edition. SQL will also use more than 1gb of RAM if your server is high enough spec'd (especially during times of high throughput such as assessment periods).

 

Michael Sanderson

Technical Engineer

Serco Learning

 

 

 

N.B: The content in the above post contains views which belong to myself and do not reflect those of my employer.

[Alis_Klar]

Birmingham's price for the CAL-less operation (Per CPU SQL Licenceing) is £750. We went for this because otherwise you have to buy a CAL for every e-Portal user! According to Link2ICT you have to have a SQL CAL for every user who will have write access to the database. So it worked out cheaper.

 

Only issue was when we wanted to buy the new Server hardware in November HP were doing a free CPU offer on DL380's

[cheredenine]

I was given to understand that a CAL was required for any user that used Facility Admin, but only one CAL was required for ePortal as it was the webserver querying the database, and not the ePorter users. This made sense to me as the CAL should cover a 'user' (a person or software agent) accessing the data, what then happens to the data is outside the remit of the CAL...

 

Birmingham's price for the CAL-less operation (Per CPU SQL Licenceing) is £750. We went for this because otherwise you have to buy a CAL for every e-Portal user! According to Link2ICT you have to have a SQL CAL for every user who will have write access to the database. So it worked out cheaper.

 

Only issue was when we wanted to buy the new Server hardware in November HP were doing a free CPU offer on DL380's

[Michael]

I was given to understand that a CAL was required for any user that used Facility Admin, but only one CAL was required for ePortal as it was the webserver querying the database, and not the ePorter users. This made sense to me as the CAL should cover a 'user' (a person or software agent) accessing the data, what then happens to the data is outside the remit of the CAL...

 

I discussed this issue with Birmingham recently. A CAL is required for every user using CMIS and e-portal, so you have to work on the theoretical maximum users writing to the database. If you have more than 28 concurrent users, you're better off buying a CPU based license.

 

If money isn't a problem, I would recommend a CPU based license. There are more admin users who require the use of CMIS today (for example), and now e-portal is becoming more popular, but what next? Parents accessing school information from home? I think in the next few years admin systems will all be accessed through a browser, BUT SQL will still be the engine of all this data in the background.

 

Also remember that buying SQL software/licenses now should cover you for SQL 2008 too, so it's a good time to buy!

[michael2k6]

Hi guys,

 

Michael's right in everything he said and i agree.

The licensing for ePortal with SQL works by users concurrently connected to eportal.

Even if it were the dataserver being connected to the database, you'd still need 5 because that's the default number of maximum SQL connections. But, it is considered 'multiplexing' software and when using multiplexing software each user must have the license, not each connection made by the software.

 

It is a good time to buy as you'll be covered by 2008, though we don't yet support it, it makes you future proof.

 

The reason we don't support SQL 2000 is because it has been phased out of mainstream support. I apreciate what you're saying about the chances are, it won't make much of a difference, but we have seen some queries perform differently in the different versions of SQL and it's no longer tested on 2000, so you never know. The other reason is we had to stop supporting (and therefore testing) SQL 2000 or we would not have the resources to begin support (and testing) SQL 2008.

If you're running SQL 2000, and you're happy, you can continue to do so, but if you phone us with a technical query (which usually only happens in terms of disaster recovery) the more time goes on, the less chance there is we'll be able to resolve the issue if you are using SQL 2000, as the support team aren't training using it anymore and there are significant differences.

 

In years to come we will be using more and more of features found in 2005 and 2008 such as stored procedures and management views, among other things, that don't exist in 2000.

 

So you're technically speaking safe for the moment, but if you've got a data issue and you're running 2000, we won't be able to support it, and at some point, there will be a radical change in the software which will cause you problems. That will not be any time soon, though.

 

Back to what we were saying about SQL only using 1gb of RAM if you're on express - SQL will only use half of the server ram by default. If you are running a Windows 2003 box with SQL 2005 SP2 and ePortal on it, as recommended, this works out about right with 4gb of RAM, as you'd want half to go to SQL, a quarter to the OS and a quarter to ePortal (apprx).

 

The thing to bear in mind with SQL is that it will load as much of the database as possible into RAM (buffer cache) to avoid writing directly to disk, which is what slows it down.

A schools Facility DB is typically between 600mb and 1.2gb, depending on the size of the school and how you use the software. If you have a 600mb db and only 1gb of RAM available (due to it being express) you only have 400mb left for queries. If your db is 1.2gb in size, it will still reserve some for queries, say a minimum of 300mb for example, and so you'd find 700mb in buffer cache and 500mb writing directly to disk, which is where the speed issue comes from.

You've certainly made the right decision going for standard.

[Smudge]

If you purchase a processor licence from an approved academic licence reseller then it should cost you around £300. With a processor licence you do not need any CALs. RivaNet is such a copmany.

If you go down the other route then you will need a CAL for every person who uses both Facility and ePortal.

[cheredenine]

I discussed this issue with Birmingham recently. A CAL is required for every user using CMIS and e-portal, so you have to work on the theoretical maximum users writing to the database.

 

I'm a bit annoyed by this - i was sure i'd been told i needed only enough CALs for Facility Admin users and one for the ePortal server, but reading this thread had me doubting myself. Just done a search and revealed a conversation i had over email with a Serco representative that specifically stated just this. Consequently I order all of 7 or 8 CALs, when i needed huge numbers more or, as suggested, a CPU license.

So now I have to use my time to double check it again and potentially spend a huge chunk of my budget on more licenses? Grrrr...

[michael2k6]

@cheredenine:

 

I'm sorry to hear you were given the wrong information. I'm on annual leave at the moment, but when i return to work in the new year i'll write a communication about licensing and send it to all implementation, sales, and support staff to ensure that everyone is aware of SQL licensing. As it isn't our software it is not something that has been trained in the past, but i will endeavour to make it part of the systems admin course, so any new staff will also be aware of this.

 

Of course, this doesn't help your current situation, but please be confident that i'll do my best to ensure this doesn't happen again.

 

If you want to discuss this further, please PM me and i'll be happy to send you my mobile number or call you on a number you might provide.

 

Again, i apologise for the wrong information being given initially.

 

Michael Sanderson

Technical Team Engineer

Serco Learning