'Long summer holidays should end'

[localzuk]

Right, so yet another interfering organisation has thrown in its 2 pence with regards to 'what's wrong with education'. This one is saying that summer holidays are too long. BBC NEWS | Education | Long school holidays 'should end'

 

What do others think?

 

I think that all these little stupid schemes and ideas that are constantly being introduced into education are missing one major factor: the views of the actual teachers. Those that work with the kids every day, and know how to get the best from them.

 

Plus, if we don't have summer holidays, when will school get major projects done? Doing them in school time would be majorly disruptive to the kids.

[kmount]

Good way to get your name in the headlines, come up with some idea, throw it out there, let it be shot down and then come back with "It's a working idea and with the 'constructive' (read: shot down) views of the public, it could happen".

[torledo]

Right, so yet another interfering organisation has thrown in its 2 pence with regards to 'what's wrong with education'. This one is saying that summer holidays are too long. BBC NEWS | Education | Long school holidays 'should end'

 

What do others think?

 

I think that all these little stupid schemes and ideas that are constantly being introduced into education are missing one major factor: the views of the actual teachers. Those that work with the kids every day, and know how to get the best from them.

 

Plus, if we don't have summer holidays, when will school get major projects done? Doing them in school time would be majorly disruptive to the kids.

 

i think the suggestion is complete rubbish....

 

instead of looking at the six week holidays, we need to look at the school day itself and ask whether that can be improved to get the best out of pupils.

 

The school day is dominated by activities that don't help a young persons health and well-being. Sitting at a desk for the majority of the day, and the limited amount of time devoted to physical activities such as sporting activities.

 

Infact, the limited range of sports and physical activities in schools, is of greater concern than the length of the six week holidays. The six week holidays were the only real chance we had when i was that age to play an extended amount of cricket and football. I know not everyone is keen onthat, but the six weeks is an opportunity for young people to do those activities that interest them that aren't available or are limited in schools.

 

The issues of literacy and numeracy do not end at the school gates, learning has to happen at the home in evenings and weekeds with meaningful activities. Activities which can mark the progress a young person is making is preferable to spending more hours in school.

[Michael]

It is a difficult subject because it affects so many young people. I personally have often thought that six weeks is a little too long for the summer holidays.

 

As a compromise, they could make February half term two weeks, Easter remains two weeks and May half term becomes two weeks, leaving the summer holiday at four weeks.

[kmount]

Nooo, I like my summer sleep!

[Michael]

I think it’s inevitable that some changes will happen as the subject keeps cropping up more and more often. I do also believe (as already mentioned) that parents have a responsibility to read and practice writing with their kids. How on earth this is the fault of the education system when the kids aren’t even at school baffles me!

 

I often think the Government should intervene more and put more pressure on those parents that couldn't care less! I really cannot see any justification for not reading with your children.

[localzuk]

It is a difficult subject because it affects so many young people. I personally have often thought that six weeks is a little too long for the summer holidays.

 

As a compromise, they could make February half term two weeks, Easter remains two weeks and May half term becomes two weeks, leaving the summer holiday at four weeks.

 

The Finnish education system has a 10 week summer holiday, they start at a later age and the younger kids finish earlier in the afternoon. And last I checked, they had better results for their kids.

[joe90bass]

The Finnish education system has a 10 week summer holiday, they start at a later age and the younger kids finish earlier in the afternoon. And last I checked, they had better results for their kids.

 

Weren't they top of an education league? (not sure if just European league or worldwide)

 

I'm sure the getting kids into school at an early age was part of a government plan/scheme to get parents back into work. Along with the plans for breakfast clubs, etc.........

[kmount]

So when uni finishes in April and doesn't go back until mid september ....?

 

(Not just kids that forget how to read and count!)

[torledo]

Weren't they top of an education league? (not sure if just European league or worldwide)

 

I'm sure the getting kids into school at an early age was part of a government plan/scheme to get parents back into work. Along with the plans for breakfast clubs, etc.........

 

i think that's a very good point....the govt. policy has been to bend over backwards for working parents. Instead of true family friendly policies - like paying for a childcare element to grandparents/relatives and help for single income working families on middling incomes,

 

instead what they've done through the tax credits system is to line the pockets of childcare organisations to look after young children full-time during a week while mum and dad get back to work to help pay for ever bigger mortgages and to fund the govts. public spending spree, that and the encouragement of after-school clubs i think is a concern that children are starting in nursery/school sooner and are spending more hours before and after school....in effect being accomodated by the parents work schedule.

[Sirbendy]

There was a time the 6 week hols was bliss...both when I was at school, and working. Over the last few years though, I've been finding myself casting around for inspiration after less than a week.

 

I'm currently term time +2 weeks..in a way, I DO think it's too long...in another, I agree about the "when the hell do we get time to do major works" viewpoint. Although I will point out that in business, you have to do it regardless..

 

This summer will be maintenance through and through as our servers are being virtualised by the LEA..NEXT summer will be hell, and if we get a break, I'll be surprised..it's the entire site move next summer..

[localzuk]

I'm currently term time +2 weeks..in a way, I DO think it's too long...in another, I agree about the "when the hell do we get time to do major works" viewpoint. Although I will point out that in business, you have to do it regardless..

 

This summer will be maintenance through and through as our servers are being virtualised by the LEA..NEXT summer will be hell, and if we get a break, I'll be surprised..it's the entire site move next summer..

 

Businesses have a lot more funding available to enable the business to continue during major works. Schools do not.

[GrumbleDook]

As someone who has worked in a school operating a 5 term year I have to admit that for the kids it is good. For the teachers it is also very good because the 2 week break gives them a chance to unwind and come back refreshed, as well as getting the required marking / planning done.

 

For us lot ... 4 weeks is usually more than enough time to do things. Being honest we only get about 2 weeks to do anything major anyway. Week 1 is summer school and things are being used, weeks 2+3 is closed down and we can get things done, Week 4 is A level results and so Wednesday - Friday SIMS needs to be up as do a few IT suites on Thursday / Friday. Week 5 we have GCSE results ... so similar applies ... and then in Week 6 we have teachers coming back in to do bits and pieces.

 

This year fresh images will be prepared before the summer hols anyway, and it is just a case of pressing the button. The only major change is a fresh domain build of Server 2008. This can be prepared before hand, and servers moved over as needed ... it is just a case of preparation and planning.

 

The 2 week break between each term is fantastic as it really does give you a chance for planned maintenance and downtime ... and a chance to do staged rollouts throughout the year.

[Oops_my_bad]

Can you imagine the fuss the teaching unions would kick up over this?

[Sirbendy]

Businesses have a lot more funding available to enable the business to continue during major works. Schools do not.

 

No, I do realise that. However, "major works" that take down the network could be scheduled for after hours instead of a 6 week break. God knows, in previous jobs myself an NM have pulled plenty of late nights. We had all of our UPS replaced a few weeks back, by MGE on behalf of the LEA..they were in from 7pm-midnight.

 

Of course, schools would have to be willing to pay for the service..but there are alternatives. We will be reimaging all our machinery - we could just as easily done it after hours, but opted to wait until summer. The virtualisation project - it's being run parallel to the existing infrastructure it seems..there are ways and means.

 

Of course, when we're running our own network in 12 months or so, I may feel different. However, right now I do feel the 6 week break is a bit long.

 

There is also the viewpoint that we both hold - businesses and schools aren't the same thing. You're not losing revenue if it goes down, and it's not going to kill them if you need to take a subsystem down for a while. Schools can exist quite happily without IT, but staff have forgotten that fact.

Edited May 25, 2008 by Sirbendy

[localzuk]

No, I do realise that. However, "major works" that take down the network could be scheduled for after hours instead of a 6 week break. God knows, in previous jobs myself an NM have pulled plenty of late nights. We had all of our UPS replaced a few weeks back, by MGE on behalf of the LEA..they were in from 7pm-midnight.

 

Of course, schools would have to be willing to pay for the service..but there are alternatives. We will be reimaging all our machinery - we could just as easily done it after hours, but opted to wait until summer. The virtualisation project - it's being run parallel to the existing infrastructure it seems..there are ways and means.

 

Of course, when we're running our own network in 12 months or so, I may feel different. However, right now I do feel the 6 week break is a bit long.

 

You are looking at this from only a IT point of view. Last summer, we had 6 class-rooms being refurbished, and all our pathways being re-concreted (they are outside the entrance to every classroom), amongst other very noisy and messy things. If that 6 weeks weren't available, it would have meant that the work would have had to have been chopped up into smaller chunks, therefore increasing the time taken to do each aspect and increasing the cost.

 

Then look at the tasks I did last summer, from a purely IT point of view. In 5 of the 6 weeks, I installed a new phone system, refurbished 3 IT suites, replaced 14 switches, installed several servers, and had various other smaller things done. If this had been done during term time, there would definitely have been disruption to T&L and it would have taken a lot longer, and cost a lot lot more (our network cabling provider is based in yorkshire, so they have to stay over night - they had to stay for 2 weeks as it was, they'd have been down here for over a month if they worked over night, and they would most definitely have cost a lot more).

Edited May 25, 2008 by localzuk

[Oops_my_bad]

Schools can exist quite happily without IT, but staff have forgotten that fact.

 

Try telling that to a jobsworth ICT teacher

[GrumbleDook]

You are looking at this from only a IT point of view. Last summer, we had 6 class-rooms being refurbished, and all our pathways being re-concreted (they are outside the entrance to every classroom), amongst other very noisy and messy things. If that 6 weeks weren't available, it would have meant that the work would have had to have been chopped up into smaller chunks, therefore increasing the time taken to do each aspect and increasing the cost.

 

Which is what happens in other sectors ... it gets broken down to manageable size chunk or alternative provision is made available. There are few sectors out there that do not experience this style of change. If you take other public sectors such as councils or hospitals, then yes .. the work is broken down to fit around the needs of the clients / users / patients / public. Education has been very lucky to get away with it all too much. People are also forgetting about the drive over the last few years for the schools to be extended into the community. Lessons may be over but facilities are still in use.

 

Then look at the tasks I did last summer, from a purely IT point of view. In 5 of the 6 weeks, I installed a new phone system, refurbished 3 IT suites, replaced 14 switches, installed several servers, and had various other smaller things done. If this had been done during term time, there would definitely have been disruption to T&L and it would have taken a lot longer, and cost a lot lot more (our network cabling provider is based in Yorkshire, so they have to stay over night - they had to stay for 2 weeks as it was, they'd have been down here for over a month if they worked over night, and they would most definitely have cost a lot more).

 

Few other sectors replace this amount of kit at once. They plan it in stages to have least impact. Kit will be unboxed, asset tagged, tested, configured and put into location prior to installation. For network hardware this can be fairly straight forward with an evening of work completed quite easily ... for cabling and having to take a room out of action whilst it is done .. yes, we have done this during term time and done it in phases. It did mean that we used a firm that would start later due to traveling and finish a bit earlier but the work got done in about the same amount of time as during holiday time actually. Only one room out of action at a time and the last thing each day was a check to make sure that there would be nothing to disrupt them the next day and that they would not be disrupting things the next day.

 

It meant we could get 2 more rooms in action 4 months earlier than planned.

 

The difficult bit is changing the mindset of senior manglement for them to understand the amount of planning and preparation that is needed for this. Gantt charts impress us, as do contingency plans ... but no matter how much this increases the difficulty for *you* as a Network Manager, there is a growing body of evidence that the 4 week summer benefits students, in their learning and in their behaviour. The think-tank did not just pick the idea out of thin air ... it has been over 10 years involved in these studies ... a long enough period to say it can make a sizable contribution to the good results and good behaviour in schools that operate this way.

[GrumbleDook]

Try telling that to a jobsworth ICT teacher

 

This is bordering on trolling ... but to give you the benefit of the doubt, even though you want to drag this into a different thread, I am sure that you would be equally happy to have to go to hospital only to find they close it down for 6 weeks during the summer ... so that operation on your knee to fix the cartilage and has meant that you should start you rehab after 4 weeks ... your not important ... surely you can wait another two to four weeks, in spite of evidence being available to show that it is more beneficial for you to start your rehab after 4 weeks?!?

 

And I am sure that when a doctor complains that this is terrible that patients would be treated like this ... you will turn round and call him a jobsworth.

[srochford]

Not sure why this is being talked about as a "new thing" - it's 10 years since I quit teaching but the idea of changing the school year had been discussed many times before that.

 

there are arguments for and against and these can be made from the point of view of families, teaching/learning and just managing the workings of the school.

 

It often seems easier to go for a "big bang" changeover of things (eg re-imaging everything in the summer) but there are ways round this and they can work ust as well without being more difficult.

 

We used to have an almost total close down during the summer and we'd replaced 200-250 PCs in an IT suite in a single hit. We no longer do this for a variety of reasons but it actually makes everything easier. I suspect suppliers would prefer it as well - instead of every school wanting lorry loads of computers delivering at the end of July, they want them delivered regularly throughout the year.

[Sirbendy]

You are looking at this from only a IT point of view. Last summer, we had 6 class-rooms being refurbished, and all our pathways being re-concreted (they are outside the entrance to every classroom), amongst other very noisy and messy things. If that 6 weeks weren't available, it would have meant that the work would have had to have been chopped up into smaller chunks, therefore increasing the time taken to do each aspect and increasing the cost.

 

Then look at the tasks I did last summer, from a purely IT point of view. In 5 of the 6 weeks, I installed a new phone system, refurbished 3 IT suites, replaced 14 switches, installed several servers, and had various other smaller things done. If this had been done during term time, there would definitely have been disruption to T&L and it would have taken a lot longer, and cost a lot lot more (our network cabling provider is based in yorkshire, so they have to stay over night - they had to stay for 2 weeks as it was, they'd have been down here for over a month if they worked over night, and they would most definitely have cost a lot more).

 

Oh no, I agree - don't think I don't.. However, we lost our PABX system a few years back, and for over a month we had mobiles while a VoIP system was established. Inconvenient, but survivable.

 

Steve and I project managed construction/refurb of 2 IT suites and our offices during the course of a term - there was no real disruption to anyone else. We just shut the rooms off, and gutted it, then had the building firms in to refit, network and power it all out during the day - no complaints from anywhere. In fact, come to think of it...all of our IT suites have been constructed during the course of a "normal" term, in the 9am-whatever time range..it's never disrupted T&L..

 

About the only bits that happened in regard to the suites in holiday time was the delivery of the machines..

 

Repaving and general site work..6 weeks is useful, but again, it's not something we as a school tend to do..it gets done when it needs it doing..we had all the corridor internal flooring torn out and replaced with that "swimming pool" style plastic mat material..done during the evenings, and in parts where possible, in the day. Painting gets done after 4pm, most things get done in "quieter times"..we had the theatre lighting replaced (BIG job) over the course of a week last term..cherrypicker in there and all.

 

They'll be back next week to replace the expired projector in there - it's not a holiday specialty..it's just that it broke on thursday, in time for a break.

 

We even converted the old 6th form block into the new reception/heads office/admin office etc in term time..although thankfully it was pre-networked. Just a case of installing switches, some fibre, the machinery and the phones. Being in there until 8pm one night trying to figure out how the hell to move a videophone is a particularly vivid memory of that..

 

As to adding servers/taking them down..no, that's an "as and when" as well..we just send out the mail beforehand notifying of downtime, and do it..all auxilliary servers though - LEA run the big ones for now, but even then if they go wrong, we'll take them off and do what needs doing..staff work around us, not the other way round.

 

This is one of the things I'm looking forward to after virtualising them...if it goes wrong, take it down, bring up a second copy in minutes. If we want to test something, just create a copy, modify it, shut the orginal down and bring up the test one. It'll be much nicer.

 

The 6 week break's biggest hassle for us is ALWAYS the bloody timetable...because it ALWAYS gets lumped on us, even though it's not our issue. Apart from that, we only ever run maintenance and smartboard/projector installs...and that's if we can't just nick a classroom for the day and relocate the class.

[torledo]

This is bordering on trolling ... but to give you the benefit of the doubt, even though you want to drag this into a different thread, I am sure that you would be equally happy to have to go to hospital only to find they close it down for 6 weeks during the summer ... so that operation on your knee to fix the cartilage and has meant that you should start you rehab after 4 weeks ... your not important ... surely you can wait another two to four weeks, in spite of evidence being available to show that it is more beneficial for you to start your rehab after 4 weeks?!?

 

And I am sure that when a doctor complains that this is terrible that patients would be treated like this ... you will turn round and call him a jobsworth.

 

that's a pretty poor analogy tony....you can't equate a 24/7 operation like the nhs to a schoolteacher needing IT access over the summer.

 

also since when does the nhs need to be closed for people to have to wait weeks and sometimes months for non-emergency operations. Most nhs patients get the impression they or they're problems aren't very important.

[GrumbleDook]

No ... a pretty good analogy when you consider that the Physio department is a section of the hospital ... in reality the hospital will have some areas open but not the ones you want ... the aim of the analogy was to point out that if a Doctor complains he cannot treat patients is he going to be called a jobsworth?

 

If you want I can change the analogy to a garage ... and someone needs a fleet of cars servicing but they can't do it because they are closed for 6 weeks ... and one of the mechanics complains ... only to be called a jobsworth.

 

You can put it so many different ways, but to call someone a jobsworth for wanting to do there job when someone else has cocked up or changed the rules is not on.

[localzuk]

Which is what happens in other sectors ... it gets broken down to manageable size chunk or alternative provision is made available. There are few sectors out there that do not experience this style of change. If you take other public sectors such as councils or hospitals, then yes .. the work is broken down to fit around the needs of the clients / users / patients / public. Education has been very lucky to get away with it all too much. People are also forgetting about the drive over the last few years for the schools to be extended into the community. Lessons may be over but facilities are still in use.

 

But as I said, the extra money required to do this would be huge, and funding in schools is already tight as it is.

 

I don't deny it could be done, I'm saying that the disruption, and the fact that it would cost more is more damaging to the T&L than having 6 weeks at summer. Having to double the cost of our projects last summer would have used as much money as hiring 3 more teachers...

 

The difficult bit is changing the mindset of senior manglement for them to understand the amount of planning and preparation that is needed for this. Gantt charts impress us, as do contingency plans ... but no matter how much this increases the difficulty for *you* as a Network Manager, there is a growing body of evidence that the 4 week summer benefits students, in their learning and in their behaviour. The think-tank did not just pick the idea out of thin air ... it has been over 10 years involved in these studies ... a long enough period to say it can make a sizable contribution to the good results and good behaviour in schools that operate this way.

 

I question this. As I pointed out earlier, we are not the only country which has a long summer holiday. We don't even have the longest summer holiday. Why would changing the holiday over here be so advantageous? When you look at these other countries, like Finland, surely the evidence points to:

 

• Starting at a later age
  
• Being more focussed on family care
  
• Spending more time *out* of school
  
• Having a focus on helping society (I think it was Sweden which has a 1 day a week day of community service for school children of a certain age)
  
• Less focus on statistics and more on actually doing the best for each kid
  
• Smaller schools
  
• Smaller class sizes
  

 

I agree with your earlier argument that more holiday throughout the year is a good thing, just not at the expense of losing the summer holiday length that we already have.

[torledo]

No ... a pretty good analogy when you consider that the Physio department is a section of the hospital ... in reality the hospital will have some areas open but not the ones you want ... the aim of the analogy was to point out that if a Doctor complains he cannot treat patients is he going to be called a jobsworth?

 

If you want I can change the analogy to a garage ... and someone needs a fleet of cars servicing but they can't do it because they are closed for 6 weeks ... and one of the mechanics complains ... only to be called a jobsworth.

 

You can put it so many different ways, but to call someone a jobsworth for wanting to do there job when someone else has cocked up or changed the rules is not on.

 

fair enough. i certianly wouldn't want to be berating someone for wanting to do they're job however arsey they can be about it....and we know how arsey teachers can be (i'm aware of how that sounds but.... what the hell). But to be fair to them thery're allowed to feel that way to an extent if someone has moved the goalposts.

 

i think the idea of spreading the holidays equally over the year is not a bad idea....but i got the impression from the article they were advocating reducing the summer holidays without moving the lost weeks to another time in the year...i think kids need a 3 month break from school.