How Far would you go with Linux in school?

[BKGarry]

One of those crazy moments of things popping into my head.

 

After having enough of messing around with RaspberryPI emulators etc. I setup an Linux based XRDP Server that allows students to logon with Windows remote Desktop and use a linux environment for some tasks.

 

How many people feel that they would every be brave enough to try and go full Linux with something like https://www.linuxschools.com (formally the Karoshi project)

 

It is an interesting notion, and may actually give something to think about, although there is something nice about having a paid for product that is something goes horribly wrong you can get premium phone support.

 

Just wondering what people's views are.

[dhicks]

Just wondering what people's views are.

 

I'm not aiming to run Linux "desktop" machines, but over half term we are planning to replace our staffroom workstations with Raspberry Pi 4s running Raspbian, with the desktop reconfigured to just run a full-screen web browser. The plan is that any local web browsing can be done client-side, and if a Windows application (Word, Excel, etc) is needed then staff can log in to our web-based remote desktop portal. The Raspberry Pi 4s handle web browsing really quite nicely - Youtube seems to run okay, and you can have 2 or 3 tabs open at the same time. I'm working on a new web-based remote gateway that uses OAuth authentication, allowing for one-lick access to a Windows desktop / application environment.

[BKGarry]

Now that is a use I hadn't thought off, although there are very few fixed machines here, I am waiting for our new internet connection in order for people to be able to use the HTML5 client in Server 2019 for RDP.

[MatthewL]

We looked at it about 10 years ago (not in a school though) and a number of us were all up for it but it never lifted off the ground. I think you need so have someone with some good Linux knowhow to get the best out of it and there is no reason why it won't work, I think it's more a time and resource issue to get it off the ground and provide training where needed.

 

Unless you are using some bespoke Windows app there is no reason why everyday users cannot use it, any anything Windows could be hosted via RDP/Citrix/VDI what ever you want.

 

Having worked very heavily with Windows and dabbled in Linux from a licensing perspective, hardware replacement (will last longer) there are savings to be had. Rarely see Linux in use these days except for the odd server, in fact I did configure 2 print servers on Linux last year but that project failed at the customer level.

[TechMonkey]

I would love to and in the past have set up all kinds of Open Source systems or installs. But to push further it would need major buy in by the school management and teachers and as there is major uproar when a font changes I was never confident enough to push it.

 

The usual arguments also apply, it's all well and good me setting it up but what about my replacement, or as I am a hobbyist with Linux what happens if there is a major issue and the system has become integral?

 

It is a fantastic ideal and wish I could push it further and harder but I have to think of the whole school and the users.

[BKGarry]

What seems to be interesting with the Linux for Schools Project is being able to use Windows as the client OS, but servers as all Linux.

 

TBH, this is pie in the sky stuff, no right or wrong answers. With students learning to use Chrome OS here as well as windows and MacOS, having a trolley of linux clients isn't too much of a jump

[PyROm]

We used to run with only linux servers here back in the windows 98 days, when XP came out we setup a server 2003 (I think) machine to handle AD and GPO as Samba hadn't got that functionality yet, however everything else remained linux (fileserver/dhcp/dns/printing etc). We carried on like this until 5 years ago when we got a new head. The new head wanted all windows machines as she said they were easier to use as everything had a checkbox (I find it ironic now the shift to server core and powershell) so we switched everything over. We do have a couple of small linux servers for running the library system, VPN, unifi video and wifi. I would not want to try and put linux on the desktop for student use though, very hard to make it so they cant mess up their profiles.

[unixman_again]

The first school that I worked in was entirely Linux for students. It wasn't a problem for them - students really did was just a bit of web browsing, word processing and maybe some spreadsheets, so platform didn't matter. What did matter, and the driving force for using it, was lack of funding. We used https://ltsp.org/ It was about 15 years ago now and I assume the LTSP is even better now than it was. Having said that, looking at their page, I don't like the idea of using systemd, which really flies in the face of the Unix mantra "Do one thing and do it well". systemd is like svchost - difficult to configure and control.

[supportman]

I wouldn't bother at all... Linux is a terrible idea for a locked down network situation at the client or server level. Saying that, chromebooks are a great innovation and are based on linux on a low level I believe.

 

I see the future as cloud based and OS independent. Just have an internet connection and get on with things.

 

Personally we use loads of great local open source software though: Glimpse, inkscape, Freemind, Blender.

 

The year of the linux desktop is probably still 20 years away, same as it was 20 years ago

[localzuk]

We considered it about 10 years ago. The biggest issue at the time was the sheer volume of legacy apps - I even went through them all and tried them out in Wine. We had about 85% of them working well in Wine. Since then though, the world has changed. We've now moved to a world where the client machine OS doesn't actually matter any more - most work is done via web browsers. So, that's why we opted to go down the Chromebook route. It will still save us a lot of money, which we are actually just reinvesting in more devices. So, instead of a few ICT suites of PCs, every child will have a Chromebook in 4 years (we're introducing them 1 year at a time). The costs work out around the same to give every child a device vs running the old Windows setup!

 

It does mean we end up with 4x the devices, but going by our experience so far with the Chromebooks, this shouldn't be a huge issue. In 3 months we've had 1 broken Chromebook from dropping, 2 dead PSUs and 1 having weird wifi issues. Out of 300. Staff have taken to G Suite very well also.

 

So, I would take the topic back a further step and ask "what is our IT trying to achieve?" and work from the ground up. Do you need servers? Do you need a full desktop OS? Do you need "profiles"?

[BKGarry]

So, I would take the topic back a further step and ask "what is our IT trying to achieve?" and work from the ground up. Do you need servers? Do you need a full desktop OS? Do you need "profiles"?

 

This, This times three thousand.

 

I can see us only have a server to run a DC, DHCP, DNS and possibly onsite Printers going forward, everything else being leveraged into the cloud.

[mavhc]

Way easier to install software on linux, apt install, done.

 

Home drives can be mounted as noexec to prevent running their own software. Could write protect their home drive .config folders too.

 

Puppet/Salt/bcfg2/cfengine etc. If you set it up well the documentation and the configuration are the same thing, and automatic. No list of things to do after the server's been installed, the list itself does all the config.

 

Want a GUI for server? https://cockpit-project.org/

 

Docker obviously for server apps

[localzuk]

Way easier to install software on linux, apt install, done.[/question]

 

Easier than what? Chromebooks? Add the "app" in the console, done. Windows? Add the installer in SCCM with silent installer switches, deploy to a collection, done.

 

Home drives can be mounted as noexec to prevent running their own software. Could write protect their home drive .config folders too.

 

Why are you wanting to store stuff in your school? Prevents children getting their work at home unless you add in something for remote access too.

Puppet/Salt/bcfg2/cfengine etc. If you set it up well the documentation and the configuration are the same thing, and automatic. No list of things to do after the server's been installed, the list itself does all the config.

 

So, instead of GPO, you end up building the same idea using other tools?

Want a GUI for server? https://cockpit-project.org/

 

Or you can just use Windows Server or the G Suite admin panel, or InTune.

 

See, what you're suggesting is basically copying the setup that most of us already have, but instead of using Windows/GPO etc... using a bunch of different tools from all sorts of different providers, so instead of having to rely on one provider to provide all your critical tools, you now have to worry about loads of tools and potentially projects dying off etc (this happens a lot in the open source world in my experience, and documentation rarely keeps up with changes too).

 

Why would you go to all that effort just to mimic what is now a pretty legacy experience?

[MatthewL]

Are there any tools/utilities to use GPO (Linux version) to managed Linux machines?

[unixman_again]

I wouldn't bother at all... Linux is a terrible idea for a locked down network situation at the client or server level. Saying that, chromebooks are a great innovation and are based on linux on a low level I believe.

 

I see the future as cloud based and OS independent. Just have an internet connection and get on with things.

 

Personally we use loads of great local open source software though: Glimpse, inkscape, Freemind, Blender.

 

The year of the linux desktop is probably still 20 years away, same as it was 20 years ago

 

It's pretty simple to lock down a Linux server cluster, if you know how.

 

As to the Linux desktop, have I been doing wrong all these years? (now in my 22nd year of Linux on the desktop - I've never owned an M$ machine).

[mavhc]

> Easier than what? Chromebooks? Add the "app" in the console, done. Windows? Add the installer in SCCM with silent installer switches, deploy to a collection, done.

 

Easier than Windows. First you pay for SCCM, then you download the installer and add it to SCCM, then you have to check if there's an update to that software and repeat.

 

> Why are you wanting to store stuff in your school? Prevents children getting their work at home unless you add in something for remote access too.

 

Store what stuff? That was about locking down a config. Where else would I store stuff?

 

> So, instead of GPO, you end up building the same idea using other tools?

 

Yes, that was the question, right?

 

> Or you can just use Windows Server or the G Suite admin panel, or InTune.

 

If you have money to give to MS and Google, they do need it after all, they're running out.

 

> See, what you're suggesting is basically copying the setup that most of us already have, but instead of using Windows/GPO etc... using a bunch of different tools from all sorts of different providers, so instead of having to rely on one provider to provide all your critical tools, you now have to worry about loads of tools and potentially projects dying off etc (this happens a lot in the open source world in my experience, and documentation rarely keeps up with changes too).

 

True, good job Google isn't famous for killing off stuff. And chromebooks get updates for what, 10 to 20 years? And Windows is fine, you just use roaming profiles, I mean pay more to use UE-V, I mean ESR.

 

> Why would you go to all that effort just to mimic what is now a pretty legacy experience?

 

To save money, that's why you've been hired after all.

[Disease]

See, what you're suggesting is basically copying the setup that most of us already have, but instead of using Windows/GPO etc... using a bunch of different tools from all sorts of different providers, so instead of having to rely on one provider to provide all your critical tools, you now have to worry about loads of tools and potentially projects dying off etc (this happens a lot in the open source world in my experience, and documentation rarely keeps up with changes too).

 

Why would you go to all that effort just to mimic what is now a pretty legacy experience?

 

Totally agree, if you want a desktop experience use windows, if you are more partial to a browser based experience use Chromebooks.

 

Really the question is what advantage to you and your users, over these tried and tested methods of delivering a consistent user experience, would you get by moving to Linux?

[mavhc]

Totally agree, if you want a desktop experience use windows, if you are more partial to a browser based experience use Chromebooks.

 

Really the question is what advantage to you and your users, over these tried and tested methods of delivering a consistent user experience, would you get by moving to Linux?

 

More money to buy other stuff

[Disease]

Windows EES agreements are hardly extortionate, and my point was about user experience, not more shiny.

[subway_lunch]

Currently we have about 70 linux machine's that specifically built as thin clients with in our school for student use. The only reason we went this path. Was the cost of replacing the machines, when we done are windows 10 upgrade over last summer.

[localzuk]

More money to buy other stuff

The problem with that is it ignores the increased costs associated with running Linux - admin time in particular, and loss of the huge wealth of support. So, for example, you have a problem with one of the tools you're using to administer your Linux setup. Your support options are much more limited - either that single tool's mailing list/forums (which I have found generally to be quite condescending in how they treat new users), a hope that someone on a more general forum like this one knows (which as it is not a common thing in education in the UK, will be less likely) or paying for a support company to help (at which point, you're back to paying for something, so why not Windows?)

 

Increased training costs - if your school or organisation has so far been a Windows user, and you switch, you've got a lot of learning and admin to do to switch over. Moving to Google is very simple - there's masses of trainers out there that can show you the majority of it in a day or so. Moving to a Linux setup, which by its very design is custom each time someone does it, is harder.

 

So, in the end, you potentially will increase your management and support costs. A lot of schools like to know that they're not out on a limb too - what happens if their resident expert leaves? They'll struggle to find someone to take over, because availability of staff who have all the skills necessary is much lower (and therefore, their salaries are generally higher).

 

So, the idea that you will save considerable amounts of money moving to Linux isn't really that true to be honest. You just shift your costs elsewhere.

 

I'm talking from experience also. We have ran Linux servers for various things, and we used to run all our thin clients on a Debian install, with a Python UI which wrapped around one of the RDP clients. Worked OK, but when something broke? Took much longer to fix because we just didn't have the knowledge needed to trace it all easily.

Edited February 14, 2020 by localzuk

[TechMonkey]

To save money, that's why you've been hired after all.

I wasn't. I was hired for my skills and experience. Nowhere in my JD does it say I have to save money. I am asked to get best value and fit for the school.

 

If my sole purpose was to save money then I would just chuck all the IT into a skip and hand out pens and paper. I would save loads of money from my department, job done.

 

EDIT:

More money to buy other stuff

But you aren't thinking about the whole picture. Would training need to be expanded to teaching staff? Would a Linux understanding third line support company need to be employed, at more of a cost then a Windows shop? What would be the effect on IT staff? Would you need to send them on retraining? Would future appointments cost the same? So there is a chance you would end up paying the same or more, it just wouldn't show on your direct budget. So the school is no better off, you've just shifted costs. Nothing is black and white and has no consequences.

 

EDIT EDIT:

Or what LocalzUK said more eloquently

Edited February 14, 2020 by TechMonkey

[dhicks]

allowing for one-lick access

 

Er, typo: I meant one click...

 

A number of large companies (Google, Microsoft, Amazon) are starting to offer streaming services of one sort or another - Microsoft's desktop-as-a-service offering is still in beta, but there's a couple of recent game streaming services (Shadow, Google Stadia, NVidia Now) that are already proving that you can do high-performance graphics over an Internet connection, possibly giving better performance than if you had local hardware - after all, as long as you have enough bandwidth and low enough latency, you can have the fancy graphics-rendering hardware in a server farm somewhere and just use a basic client. Adobe must be looking at something similar for Creative Cloud. It rather implies that, given a few years, your local desktop OS really isn't going to matter that much, your end-user applications (along with all their configurations and so on) are going to be away on a server farm somewhere.

[mavhc]

> The problem with that is it ignores the increased costs associated with running Linux - admin time in particular, and loss of the huge wealth of support. So, for example, you have a problem with one of the tools you're using to administer your Linux setup. Your support options are much more limited - either that single tool's mailing list/forums (which I have found generally to be quite condescending in how they treat new users), a hope that someone on a more general forum like this one knows (which as it is not a common thing in education in the UK, will be less likely) or paying for a support company to help (at which point, you're back to paying for something, so why not Windows?)

 

You're only paying for the time something doesn't work though. Not like Microsoft have free support after you pay them, there's still talk of £500 support calls

 

> Increased training costs - if your school or organisation has so far been a Windows user, and you switch, you've got a lot of learning and admin to do to switch over. Moving to Google is very simple - there's masses of trainers out there that can show you the majority of it in a day or so. Moving to a Linux setup, which by its very design is custom each time someone does it, is harder.

 

So make a standard way. Why would switching all your computers to linux that just boot chrome (ChromeOS) be less difficult than switching to a desktop os that copies windows, running all the apps you already run?

 

> So, in the end, you potentially will increase your management and support costs. A lot of schools like to know that they're not out on a limb too - what happens if their resident expert leaves? They'll struggle to find someone to take over, because availability of staff who have all the skills necessary is much lower (and therefore, their salaries are generally higher).

 

Weird how it's fine to expect people to know windows, mac, android, ios and chromeos, but linux? That's a step too far! Of course 4 out of 5 of those OSes are unix based anyway, it's Windows that is the odd one out.

 

> So, the idea that you will save considerable amounts of money moving to Linux isn't really that true to be honest. You just shift your costs elsewhere.

 

Yep, that freepbx phone system, I get calls all day about it, wait, calls all day using it, that's what I meant

 

> I'm talking from experience also. We have ran Linux servers for various things, and we used to run all our thin clients on a Debian install, with a Python UI which wrapped around one of the RDP clients. Worked OK, but when something broke? Took much longer to fix because we just didn't have the knowledge needed to trace it all easily.

 

But your years of Windows 10, Mac OS X, iOS, Android and ChromeOS training you had because you got your job helped, right?

[localzuk]

You're only paying for the time something doesn't work though. Not like Microsoft have free support after you pay them, there's still talk of £500 support calls

 

There are literally thousands of support companies providing support. Google includes support with ChromeOS when you buy the management license.

So make a standard way. Why would switching all your computers to linux that just boot chrome (ChromeOS) be less difficult than switching to a desktop os that copies windows, running all the apps you already run?

 

There is no single "standard" way. Also are you seriously saying that building a linux setup, from scratch, would be as easy as buying Chromebooks and loading up the admin console which is ready to go??

Weird how it's fine to expect people to know windows, mac, android, ios and chromeos, but linux? That's a step too far! Of course 4 out of 5 of those OSes are unix based anyway, it's Windows that is the odd one out.

 

Yup. Linux is a niche skill. Especially Linux on the desktop. Again, this is because there is no "standard" way of doing things with Linux. Every distro does it differently. Many distros provide dozens of ways of doing things. Mac? There's a Apple standard way of setting things up. Android? There's MDM - which is standardised based on the spec by Google. iOS - same as with Android. ChromeOS? Only one standard way of doing it - the admin panel. Windows? Whilst you *can* do things in different ways, MOST people follow the MS way of doing things - using MS tools on MS OS's in their standardised way.

 

Yep, that freepbx phone system, I get calls all day about it, wait, calls all day using it, that's what I meant

 

One server? Running one piece of software? Not exactly an example of an entire network is it?

 

But your years of Windows 10, Mac OS X, iOS, Android and ChromeOS training you had because you got your job helped, right?

That doesn't dismiss what I said in the slightest. Things broke - they took longer to fix when they were Linux systems. My years of experience with Windows didn't help - at the time, we didn't have ChromeOS, Android, etc... You are talking about a total and radical change in doing things. Going from "MS says click XYZ and it'll do ABC" to "write your config files by hand, you'll fundamentally need to understand how every single tool works, and how to integrate them together" etc... ChromeOS is an easy transition - it is a very simple single pane of glass to admin it. Linux stuff is not.

 

That's kinda the whole point I'm trying to make. There is no such thing as a standard Linux network. It doesn't exist, because there is no such thing as a standard Linux OS, let alone the tools on top of it to do various tasks. That flexibility increases admin and support costs. It is a completely different way of doing things, that will require significant investment in training - either in the form of actual training, or in the form of time. Many schools don't have time, so you end up trying to justify actual training - and the question then becomes why do we pay for all this training, when the system we have already does everything you want this new one to do, and we can get support from thousands of companies at ease, and hire your replacement at ease should you leave right now?